Chi vs. Prana, Meridians vs. Nadis, Chakras vs. Dan Tiens

[rain]

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Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[sheng zhen]

Im actually on vacation now, but I cant help it. I love studying these things and love discussing them

 

Freeform, you mention the analogy of snow, but why dont you want to talk about all the different qualities of snow and what you have learned about it? Why do you keep telling us to stop using words? Why cant you just share your experience with these things instead of telling us to get our own experience?

 

I understand that experience is the most important, but that is not my issue. Im not interesting learning how to see the chakras or nadis or anything. Im interested in hearing about experienced peoples views on the differences, because textbooks and too many teachers mix them all up believing it is all the same.

 

Now, here is another analogy, just because analogies are so fun: you dont need to know anything about cars other than to drive if you use it only to go to work. But if you want work in a science team and develop new materials for cars to make them better and more comfortable to the normal people, you need to know every detail about cars, you need to know every detail about the molecular makeup of the materials and all their strengths and weaknesses. You need to know a hell of a lot about almost everything! This is where Im asking these questions from. I want to know a hell of a lot on how peoples energetic constitusion is built up.

 

So let me just say where I stand. I know all about chakras and auras and the organ energies, meridians and some other enerysystems aswell. But Im new to taoism and how differents states and energies are labled. Still i recognice a lot of these states from my own practice, that I only have been calling energy. Like shen. Insted of working on not scattering my shen, Ive been working on not scattering my energy. And things like that.

 

As we develop we need new lables to understand where we are and orientate our selves in this new state. Otherwise it all would still be subconscious and impossible to articulate. I would love to get a better vocabulary and not just call EVERYTHING I feel and see: energy. Because I know it is different qualities of energy, but I havent learned the words. Im not, as you say it, trying to reverse the prosess.

 

And I believ that the argument that all this is of the mind is something too many use to hide that they dont really have any knowledge of these things. So come on people! Give us your experiences, not just your general theories.

 

Ill try to articulate what I know about energysystems in a little while, to get this thread back into the technical issues. Then you all can go ahead a trash my illusions as you wish. Maby some of you can help me and fill in my gaps and misunderstandings also

[rain]

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Edited April 18, 2008 by rain

[Wayfarer64]

As I've related here before - I feel deeply connected to both wild & tame "animal" life forms, and have since childhood...

 

Over the past few weeks flocks of geese have been grazing in a field that I crosss on my way to work. I tend to walk around them rather than short-cut through them, the last few days they have been moving away from my path and allowing me to short-cut the field... granted the droppings have made this a mine-field of sorts but I can sense the intent of community growing...

 

A just today the flocks were gone and a falcon flew down from a high circle to "buzz" me -just a few feet above my head and I sensed he had become aware of the communal intent of my being as well...

 

Just as i had felt as a child in the woods of Connecticut 50 years ago...My belonging to the natural world has not been deminished by my years in NYC... I can go home again as it were...

 

peace-Pat

[sheng zhen]

shengzhen

 

to me shen is something distinct.

 

it is not "energy" but something quite distinct. it descends upon me.

but then again. i don't read much. about this.

as a fact i never read "the program". i like surprises.

im a happy idiot.

Thanks Rain. I dont know what shen really is either, but hearing about your experience helps me closer to knowing.

 

Here is my take on chakras, just to show what kind of technicality and knowledge Im looking for. There is so much general and personal views in these threads, I would like to hear more about specific knowledge and personal experience. Like Taomeow show us. more of that

 

Ok. Here is the chakras:

Chakras are energetic vortexes placed in, on and outside the body based on the frequency they represent. They function as embassies between the individual and the objective reality. They filther impulses recieved from reality and make it fit the individuals state of existence. Chakras are connected to pure consciousness, the soul aspect of this incarnation, and its evolutionary process.

 

Each chakra is representatives of the individuals state on that specific area of consciousness expression and communication with that specific level of reality. Like base chakra deals with survival and the individuals ability to stay grounded in the present situatio. The crown chakra deals with the individuals attitude towards the divine and his own higher levels of existence.

 

The chakras show the individuals state in the different realities. When you see them you can see straight through the individual. You can see past the individuals illusions about himself because his true expression is helplessly expressed by the chakras.

 

They have a lot of different qualities, but mostly they are like a tennisball of light which seem to have its own intelligence. Some are bigger, some are smaller. Some are more active, more passive, more disturbed, more healthy, etc. You can diagnose an individuals inner experience of life, his challenges and potentials, based on the condition of the chakras. You can also affect the individuals learning process by working with the chakras. Helping them recieve reality more clearly and therby giving them a chance to choose differently not based on the regular patterns. There are thousands of other benefits on working with the chakras too.

 

We have the 7 most known chakras, but we also have thousands of other chakras. Like in palm, foot, back of the head, three in the forehead, several above the head, several below the feet, several on the chest, and much more. They are both on the surface of the body, 10cm outside of the body and inside the central pillar of the body.

 

All chakras are like portals, or recievers, of specific frequencies of the total spectrum of reality.

 

This is just a brief technical description of them. There is a whole science to working with them, and each chakra has a whole world of their own to study.

 

The chakras are more connected to prana than qi, to pure consciousness more than the bodys health. But they still effect the body, especially through the endocrine system. they are also closely connected to the organs or bodyparts in close proximity.

[rain]

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Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[freeform]

you need to know every detail about cars, you need to know every detail about the molecular makeup of the materials and all their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Q: How do you get to know this? A: You would test and experiment and test again...

 

Because the aspect of your of your being that is to do with chi is feminine in nature, it's all about feeling! The feeling of emotion, but also the feelings of touch, movement, coordination, temperature, texture etc. The feminine is not about certainties, you cant measure it, you can't capture it because it's always in motion. it doesn't make sense because the part of you that makes things make sense is too limited to grasp it - can you measure the love you have for someone, the rudeness of a word, the sadness of a song - all these are feelings. We have many names for feelings - sorrow, sadness, 'feeling blue' etc - but if I asked "what does 'gratefullness' really mean" - to answer me you feel a little bit of the feeling and then have a thought about it and then try to explain...

 

similarly how could you explain the tatse of saltiness to someone who hasn't tasted it before? - you may very well have definitions - there is sharp saltiness, savoury saltiness, soft saltiness etc. but if you've never tasted salt then this makes no sense.

 

so the problem I see about defining, closely reading about the energetic anatomy, looking at pictures and charts etc is that instead of tasting the salt, you're just studying the names and definitions about it - but the taste is where it really counts!

 

...

 

Im interested in hearing about experienced peoples views on the differences, because textbooks and too many teachers mix them all up believing it is all the same.

 

I will, however, be happy try to share... to be usefull I will try to explain what I feel inside.

 

 

There is a feeling I get that feels like expanding - outwardsy kind of feeling, I feel its location mainlyit just where the ribcage ends... when this chi 'moves me' I feel it in my legs, slightly springy, elastic type of motion, but also outwards. That chi is also connected with the feeling that I want to socialise, make jokes, share - but it's also connected to anger, resentment etc... Taomeow explained it in yet another way...

 

you have to be kind of poetic about this stuff...

 

you might ask: "if it's so vague why did the taoists and the yogis create elaborate charts, explanations and distinctions?" Imo it's because these masters had a different constitution - they were far more in contact with the feminine, feeling, ambiguous, unexplainable part of us, so when they did movements and qigong and other excersises they developed much quicker in that aspect - however for them at the time the knowing, specific, logical, mental aspect was just developing. It was interesting, and uncharted, mysterious -

 

so while they were still connected to their feminine natures , they also began to use the masculine, mental aspect; this began the effect of creativity, of creating symbols, talismans, theories (5 element, ba gua, chakras)etc... This aspect of us then developed quickly, it got quick results (agriculture, metal smelting, engeneering, the internet) and the feminine aspect became lost in unconsciousness and thus became so 'mysterious'... Now, because we're so over developed mentally, it's far more important to start developing (or rather re-experiencing) the feminine. That's why I'm suggesting that experience should be occupying 90% of your time, whilst theorising, reading, intellectualising should be 10%... (at some point you can develop a way of thinking and speaking where it originates from the feminine - this is how great poets, writers, artists, mathematicians, martial artists, philosophers etc become so respected)

 

...

 

I feel that feeling that we call 'enjoyment' for this exchange.

[seadog]

Recently I diagnosed myself with stagnent liver chi invading spleen.This diagnoses was achieved by following the clues that my body was giving me (no need to get into detail) and researching these symptoms with reference to tcm information. I then read about the variuos acpuncture point combinations for the diagnoses of stagnent liver chi invading spleen, selected the points that I could reach on myself, and applied the needles.

 

I took careful note of my pulse before the acupuncture,and defined it as wiry yang pulse, easily detected on the surface but disappears once you push your fingers deeper into the artery.

 

I took my time finding the percise point and achieving qi.Believe me you will know when this happens. After applying the needles on the selected points I lay back and took note of any changes I felt in my body.

The first difference I noted was a change in my breathing pattern followed closely by a sense of deepening relaxation.

 

Within ten minutes I had fallen into a light slumber almost comparable to a meditation state. I remained in this state for three quarters of an hour before gradually waking up.

 

I removed the needles in the prescribed manner and took my pulse again. Although my pulse was still wiry it had lost much of it yang quality and could be detected further in the artery. Shortly after I went to bed for wonderful nights sleep.

 

The next day I felt so much lighter and the constant dull pain just below my liver was absent. My mood was much lighter and the underlying sense of anger which is often goes han in hand with stagnent liver chi was gone.

 

It has been two weeks since I preformed this little experiment on myself and I'am most please with the outcome.

The simplest way that I know of detecting and expriencing the quality of qi in your body is through the pulse.

The proof lies in the pulse as it were. Pulse diagnoses is a real artform and when you read about the variuos different qualities of pulses its mind boggling.

Still if we are after a direct exprience of the quality of qi in ours or someone elses body look to the pulse.

[Wayfarer64]

I was very young when in Conn. 2-3 yo... I had two semi-feril cats as my protectors and we sat in the woods together -they were hunting... until my baby-sitter or mom would find me, but I "ran away" to the woods as often as I could ...

until there was a normality to it that even my mom began to accept... in that I could go what seemed to me then a long ways from the house... I guess it wasn't so very far, but it was in the woods and the cats could hunt as I sat quietly...

 

My happiest times are still when out in old growth forest-

which there is still some of near where I live...But it is going fast and the animals are squeezed more every month...into smaller and smaller areas in which to live.

 

The strength I gleen from deep meditation in those woods is greater than if I were on my carpet at home, or so it seems to me. Connecting to the Earth is where I get my strength. I feel it deeply and I don't really care what I call it or where it resides within me...The energy of the Earth is qi to me and that is the only sense of having been given/lent power that makes any real sense to me. I am not powerful, but my connection to the Earth offers me actual strength...

[sheng zhen]

why I'm suggesting that experience should be occupying 90% of your time, whilst theorising, reading, intellectualising should be 10%...

I totally agree that experience should occupy 90%!

 

At the risk of rambling, just because I love working with these things, here is one for the aura.

Im not saying anything about how to learn to see these things because it takes years of practice, so this is only technical.

 

But still, there is one technique where most people actually see auras. In the early morning, just before the sun rises, lift your hand towards the blue sky and focus your eyes in the air 1-2 cm just outside of the hand. Use your sidevision to catch it. Most people are able to see the energy and colours emmanating from the hand at this early time of day.

 

Ok, here it goes for the aura:

Around every human being, plant or rock there is an aura. It consists of a lot of layers interacting and responding to the environment and the inner impulses of the body and the individual.

 

When seen as a whole, I mean without any filters of the mind, it is seen as an amazingly beautiful aurora of light and colours playing and sparkling around the individual.

 

But most people see through filters and therefore only see parts of the aura, only certain layers. Like those who see your personality through the colour of your aura filters out anything else but that which shown your general personality.

 

Every molecular action in the body is shown in the aura. The state of every organ is shown. Also every thought and emotion, both conscious and subconscious is shown. You can filter out everything but the emotion for example, and look at the emotional state of the individual. You can also filter out anything but the liver energies and look at how the liver is expressed in the aura. This way you can see how the liver energy comunicates with the surroundings. If you pay attention to this you can see when the liver energy is active and not, and what situations or thought that affect it.

 

The auras main function is communicating with the immidiate surroundings. Through the aura you get information from everything around you, both people, plants and things.

 

You can also see the shape and texture of the aura and therby see what people think. Like in a classroom you can easily see who pays attention and not by seeing if the aura focused towards the teacher or not. You can also easily see which boy is interested in which girl.

 

Most people are able to see white light 2-5 cm around peoples head when they are in front of a white background. This is just the most dense part of the aura. You can see the light expand around the head when the individual is consentrating. This light is just that you see where the energy is directed in the body, nothing more. But around 50-150cm out of the body you see the different physiological and mental aspects of the individual. Here is the colours and sparkles. The further out from the body, the higher aspects consciousness is represented.

 

It demands an extreme clearvision to see further out than the physical and emotional part of the subtle aura. Most people think that seeing thought manifested in the aura is something high level ability, but it is not. For most people the thoughts they see are just the physical thinking, and not the more spiritual mind-aspect. If you see further out than the emotional aura you will see the karmic patterns constantly affecting us. And even further out is the soul and eternal aspects. Those who know how to see these things dosent have to tune in or translate images they recieve in their mind. They see it just the way we see the glass of water in ront of us, just as clear.

 

By working with the aura you open up the individuals view of his surroundings and his own relationship towards it. People who have a clean and clear aura is looked upon as wonderful people with great carisma. They are someone we feel we want to be around. The reason for this is that their clear aura helps your aura adjust itself, and you see the world more clearly. This is also the reason you learn more by being in close proximity with your teacher. The teacher is constantly transmitting teachings through his aura.

 

The aura has nothing to do with neither qi nor prana. It is just a consequence of activity in the body and other parts of the individual. WE can rather say that every energysystem has an aura. The meridians have their own aura, chakras have their own, etc.

 

There is one russian researcher, Fritz Popp, who has discovered that every living being, every molocular process, emminates light particles, bio-photons. He has the technology to measure it. As for the kirilian photogaphy, they also only see only one aspect of the aura, not the whole thing. It is extremly limited compared to human senses. But it is alot easier than to work on developing your own auravision, so guess many people are happy just to have their photos taken.

 

As for my aura-vision Ive had several perseptive openings where for a few seconds I can see it all in all its grace. But it isnt permanent for me. I can normally only see shape and general texture, but when Im in the right state I can see more details like colours and layers.

[sheng zhen]

[freeform]

Im really on shaky ground here. I dont know what I talk about because Ive worked so little with the dan tiens. So Im hoping someone can adjust these statements, crush my illusions and give me the more correct ones.

 

I'm enjoying this topic and your presence here. I will keep challenging you with this, though - so please don't take this as anything more than a friendly debate...

 

I read your piece on the aura... you later said: "I know my way around chakras and aura" - this communicated to me more than you may realise - I'm afraid I found that most of what you wrote came from 'knowledge' peppered with a tiny bit of actual experience - it feels to me like regurgitated book knowledge... and the experience was completely coloured by your expectations and impressions from books and other mind-stuff.

 

I can't see the aura, but I can feel it... I can then pay close attention to the vibration of the feeling and this, is represented through sound! So I can hear an aura (at least the general state of it) - but the hearing comes from paying close attention to the feeling... I also have a very strong sense of smell - not sure if I can 'smell' the aura, but I can often (in the right environment) smell the condition of a person (excitement, relaxation, fear, illness etc) of course living in the city, I'm usually unable to exercise this sense... I have no idea how the aura works, what it's connected to, how many 'levels' it has etc... I suspect if I tried to work it out, it would stop me feeling the actual aura, and instead I would start to perceive my limitations (language and 'thought' are self inflicted limitations)

 

When I was in art school, I'd love to go to the regular life-drawing class - I wasn't that good, but it was really fun... One of the first lessons was to learn to keep your eye on the model, and not on your paper - 90% looking at the model and 10% looking at your paper... it's quite hard at first - your mind keeps making it seem like it knows best, it's hard to trust your intuition to be in the drivers seat... Over time it became easier and easier to let my hand do most of the work, without having to keep thinking about direction of light, proportions, perspective, colour etc... all that came automatically, without having to read books, use rulers etc.

 

We had a guy in that class who had quit his job as an architect and wanted to become more creative... In class he drew really well finished, proportional, well shaded pieces - all the students would look at it and wish they could do it as well as him... the professor, on the other hand, would keep telling him it's all wrong and he's not doing what's asked of him- 'you have to draw your act of experiencing the subject - what you're doing is more akin to a cheap photocopier than an artist with a soul'... The poor guy was obviously disappointed - all his life he'd been praised for being such a perfectionist and an excellent draftsman...

 

One day it really got to him and he kind of lost it - he scribbled chaotic, crazed mass of lines on his page, along with profanities... (this was unusual for the quiet and normally very reserved Japanese man) - I think he wanted to piss off the professor... anyway, at the end of the drawing session, the professor walks around the room, looking at every drawing, making some comments etc. When he walks past the Japanese architect, he quickly nods, says 'good - you're starting to get the hang of it' and walks on...

[idquest]

[sheng zhen]

Thanks! Love a friendly conversation

 

I read your piece on the aura... you later said: "I know my way around chakras and aura" - this communicated to me more than you may realise - I'm afraid I found that most of what you wrote came from 'knowledge' peppered with a tiny bit of actual experience - it feels to me like regurgitated book knowledge... and the experience was completely coloured by your expectations and impressions from books and other mind-stuff.

Well, I understand why you feel that way, Im a mind kind of guy But Im still confident that I know my way around chakras and aura. The last seven years Ive been working professionally with clients and their developement. Mostly through the chakras and aura, but also other energysystems. I dont do the regular healing, but I work with the energysystems to help klients experience more of their own experience and potential. Its a method developed here in norway called Spiritual Integraton Therapy. The point is not to heal, but to open more of the individual to the total experience and integrate it. And to do that we work mainly through the chakra and aura.

 

I can't see the aura, but I can feel it... I can then pay close attention to the vibration of the feeling and this, is represented through sound! So I can hear an aura (at least the general state of it) - but the hearing comes from paying close attention to the feeling... I also have a very strong sense of smell - not sure if I can 'smell' the aura, but I can often (in the right environment) smell the condition of a person (excitement, relaxation, fear, illness etc) of course living in the city, I'm usually unable to exercise this sense... I have no idea how the aura works, what it's connected to, how many 'levels' it has etc... I suspect if I tried to work it out, it would stop me feeling the actual aura, and instead I would start to perceive my limitations (language and 'thought' are self inflicted limitations)

Yes, there are many ways to sense energy. But those who are more "clear" than us are able to see it with their physical eyes, just as we see a regular bottle of coca cola. Ive had openings where I could see it, but im not quite there yet. Still too hung up on my regular bottle of coke.

 

One interesting thing Ive heard about is that a human being radiates 4000 different smell-molecules at all times. 300 of those are specific for the individual. The smell-molecules is constantly radiating from the body based on what goes on in the body. It could be that these molecules play a subconscious part in the energy-sensing we do when looking at someone.

 

And I agree with you, the mind is only in the way if we use our it to do things. But still it is a very important part of us. If we only use feeling it would also be "in the way" of developement. We would be stuck in chaotic movement without direction. Both are needed for the complete experience.

 

When I studied at the university I allways sat in meditation listening to the teacher. I didnt try to focus, to understand or to remember anythin of what he said. I only sat in silent meditation and letting everything "enter" me, sort of. I just let my brain sort things out without my conscious intrvention. This made me able to understant thing a lot faster, remember things without effort, and really save a LOT of energy during my studying. It made me able to have two part time jobs, one university study and one therspy school, and participate in several projects, all at the same time. When I got a girlfriend things started to fall a part though. Now I only have one job and taking a break from both school and therapy. Girls are very demanding, but no doubt its worth it

 

The mind, and the brain, are fantastic tools to ground our experiences. But if we use them to direct us, or define things for us, then we get lost real quick. Experience first, then understanding. Stillness meditation is the only thing that takes us further than our own limits, the only thing that can give us radical new experiences. If I try to understand what I see I will only get in the way of the real understanding. But if I just let it happen, stay silent and receptive, things show themselves.