What is Kundalini and what entails an awakening

[dwai]

Let’s discuss this here. 

[oak]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

Let’s discuss this here. 

Sure,

My thoughts on it

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel

[Bindi]

@ Dwai

 

 

[Bindi]

@dwai

 

 

[Jeff]

To me, Kundalini is what people call energy movement when they are not yet fully consciously aware of it. Add a little mental clarity, and there is no such thing as kundalini. That is why traditions like Buddhism that focus on clarity first, do not have any concept such as Kundalini.

[Apech]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

To me, Kundalini is what people call energy movement when they are not yet fully consciously aware of it. Add a little mental clarity, and there is no such thing as kundalini. That is why traditions like Buddhism that focus on clarity first, do not have any concept such as Kundalini.

 

 

Candali.

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, Bindi said:

@dwai

 

 

 

From your link, is this your definition of Kundalini and the steps?

 

http://kundalinicare.com/kinds-of-kundalini-risings-2/

[Jeff]

8 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Candali.

 

And does that mean that Candali/Tummo is the same as Kundalini in your opinion? Does Bindi’s link fit with your definition?

 

http://kundalinicare.com/kinds-of-kundalini-risings-2/

 

 

Edited March 1, 2018 by Jeff

[Apech]

4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

And does that mean that Canali/Tummo is the same as Kundalini in your opinion? Does Bindi’s link fit with your definition?

 

http://kundalinicare.com/kinds-of-kundalini-risings-2/

 

 

 

Quote

 

Tummo is a Tibetan word, literally meaning fierce [woman] or, generally, inner fire.^[5] The terms drod and tummo are synonymous though the former is used in Traditional Tibetan medicine, whilst the latter is employed in tantric spiritual disciplines. The Sanskrit terms caṇḍalīand kuṇḍalinī are clearly etymologically related.

Kundalini is etymologically linked to candalī, the Sanskrit term for tummo, or inner fire. The two practices are also related. Miranda Shaw clarifies:

Kuṇḍalinī-yoga offered a range of techniques to harness the powerful psycho-physical energy coursing through the body... Most people simply allow the energy to churn in a cauldron of chaotic thoughts and emotions or dissipate the energy in a superficial pursuit of pleasure, but a yogi or yogini consciously accumulates and then directs it for specified purposes. This energy generates warmth as it accumulates and becomes an inner fire or inner heat (candālī) that [potentially] burns away the dross of ignorance and ego-clinging.^[6]

Kundalini, therefore, is the energy that when accumulated and directed can become tummo. The two are essentially similar in nature but applied in somewhat different ways in the Hindu Kundalini Yoga practice and the Vajrayana Buddhist tummo practices, such as the Six Yogas of Naropa.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Tummo

Quote

 

 

 

The word Candali is actually etymologically linked to Kundalini and = Tummo.

 

Buddhists have a slightly different chakra and nadi system but essentially the same thing.  This is from the Six Yogas of Naropa so is Tantric Buddhism.

 

No idea about Bindi's link I haven't examined it in detail.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Apech

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Tummo

 

 

The word Candali is actually etymologically linked to Kundalini and = Tummo.

 

Buddhists have a slightly different chakra and nadi system but essentially the same thing.  This is from the Six Yogas of Naropa so is Tantric Buddhism.

 

No idea about Bindi's link I haven't examined it in detail.

 

Thanks. I can definitely see your logic. But, is not tummo a conscious activity/practice? Or is it some uncontrolled random rising in the body?

 

Also, from your post it seems like a good thing as it can burn away ego clinging and ignorance?

Edited March 1, 2018 by Jeff

[Apech]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Thanks. I can definitely see your logic. But, is not tummo a conscious activity/practice? Or is it some uncontrolled random rising in the body?

 

 

Tummo is a yoga just as Kundalini Yoga is.  But it is also possible for spontaneous awakening - which actually can cause problems as per 'kundalini syndrome'.

 

https://realization.org/p/mantak-chia/most-effective-cure-for-kundalini-psychosis.html

Edited March 1, 2018 by Apech

[Bindi]

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

From your link, is this your definition of Kundalini and the steps?

 

http://kundalinicare.com/kinds-of-kundalini-risings-2/

 

I find they have a good understanding of kundalini and nadi's in general, especially the central nadi, though I agree with the Tibetan Buddhist concept that Kundalini needs to exit through the forehead and not the crown. This to me is a fundamental difference between kundalini paths and neidan +Tibetan Buddhism. 

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

 

Tummo is a yoga just as Kundalini Yoga is.  But it is also possible for spontaneous awakening - which actually can cause problems as per 'kundalini syndrome'.

 

Thanks. Would you say Kundalini and tummo clear out ego clinging and ignorance when consciously directed? That it is very helpful. But when not directed correctly (or subconscious) it can exasperate “ignorance” and you get what I think you are calling “Kundalini syndrome”?

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

I find they have a good understanding of kundalini and nadi's in general, especially the central nadi, though I agree with the Tibetan Buddhist concept that Kundalini needs to exit through the forehead and not the crown. This to me is a fundamental difference between kundalini paths and neidan +Tibetan Buddhism. 

 

So then you are saying that Kundalini = tummo too? Just some different exit point in the body?

[Bindi]

I have never really looked into the concept of tummo so I have nothing to say about it ATM, I have tried to research the Tibetan understanding of the central channel though, in which ajna is at the end of the central energy channel, which runs up the body to the top of the head, and then over and down, terminating at the forehead. The two side channels which in the Hindu tradition are referred to as Ida and Pingala then continue inward towards the two nostrils according to their tradition and end there. 

 

It is possible that their concept of the central channel starts at the tip of the penis, my information on this is limited, but if so this would suggest they're not using kundalini energy which typically is viewed as beginning closer to the lower spine. 

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I have never really looked into the concept of tummo so I have nothing to say about it ATM, I have tried to research the Tibetan understanding of the central channel though, in which ajna is at the end of the central energy channel, which runs up the body to the top of the head, and then over and down, terminating at the forehead. The two side channels which in the Hindu tradition are referred to as Ida and Pingala then continue inward towards the two nostrils according to their tradition and end there. 

 

It is possible that their concept of the central channel starts at the tip of the penis, my information on this is limited, but if so this would suggest they're not using kundalini energy which typically is viewed as beginning closer to the lower spine. 

 

So does that mean that you disagree with Apech and his quoted link?

[Bindi]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

 

So does that mean that you disagree with Apech and his quoted link?

 

In his quoted link they say "yoga describes Tummo as the aggressive fire which ignites from below navel, pierces the chakras one by one and reaches the sky of the crown chakra." 

 

I follow the school of thought where the Tibetan Buddhists envision the central channel ending in the forehead, not the crown, which doesn't tally with this description of tummo really, but someone with more knowledge of Tibetan practices might be able to explain why there seems to be a discrepancy here. 

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

In his quoted link they say "yoga describes Tummo as the aggressive fire which ignites from below navel, pierces the chakras one by one and reaches the sky of the crown chakra." 

 

I follow the school of thought where the Tibetan Buddhists envision the central channel ending in the forehead, not the crown, which doesn't tally with this description of tummo really, but someone with more knowledge of Tibetan practices might be able to explain why there seems to be a discrepancy here. 

 

By Tibetan Buddhists, does that mean you follow more of a Dzogchen path/view (and they don’t have crown stuff)?

 

Do you also agree with Apech’s quote about how Kundalini/tummo quote on “This energy generates warmth as it accumulates and becomes an inner fire or inner heat (candālī) that [potentially] burns away the dross of ignorance and ego-clinging.[6]” That Kundalini can be extremely helpful in the removal of ignorance?

[Apech]

32 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Thanks. Would you say Kundalini and tummo clear out ego clinging and ignorance when consciously directed? That it is very helpful. But when not directed correctly (or subconscious) it can exasperate “ignorance” and you get what I think you are calling “Kundalini syndrome”?

 

 

When people have not laid the foundations of a strong and stable subtle body the force of kundalini can activate a range of symptoms like physical shaking, eyesight problems and even worse psychopathology.  Removing ignorance involves seeing things as they really are and not just energy manipulation but kundalini properly handled can promote awakening as it gives extra 'mental' strength and power to cut through illusion.  

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

When people have not laid the foundations of a strong and stable subtle body the force of kundalini can activate a range of symptoms like physical shaking, eyesight problems and even worse psychopathology.  Removing ignorance involves seeing things as they really are and not just energy manipulation but kundalini properly handled can promote awakening as it gives extra 'mental' strength and power to cut through illusion.  

 

Thanks. So would you basically agree with this statement from Norbu...

 

The tantric practitioner, however, is aware of how energy functions, and knows that blocking energy can cause disturbances to the body as well as to the mind. He or she does not put the brakes on the flow of energy, does not repress it, but uses it as a means for transformation.

 

Edited March 2, 2018 by Jeff

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Thanks. So would you basically agree with this statement from Norbu...

 

The tantric practitioner, however, ever, is aware of how energy functions, and knows that blocking energy can cause disturbances to the body as well as to the mind. He or she does not put the brakes on the flow of energy, does not repress it, but uses it as a means for transformation.

 

 

I don't disagree with it but as a quote in isolation it should not be taken to imply that there is no preliminary practice to strengthen and purify the subtle body.  Indeed I would argue the whole of the ethical and bodhicitta stages are part of this.  It is not about just letting everything flow with no prior cultivation which would be unwise.

 

 

[Jeff]

44 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I don't disagree with it but as a quote in isolation it should not be taken to imply that there is no preliminary practice to strengthen and purify the subtle body.  Indeed I would argue the whole of the ethical and bodhicitta stages are part of this.  It is not about just letting everything flow with no prior cultivation which would be unwise.

 

Sure. Tummo is a completion stage practice. It would be implied that all such activity is for advanced practioners. 

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

By Tibetan Buddhists, does that mean you follow more of a Dzogchen path/view (and they don’t have crown stuff)?

 

Do you also agree with Apech’s quote about how Kundalini/tummo quote on “This energy generates warmth as it accumulates and becomes an inner fire or inner heat (candālī) that [potentially] burns away the dross of ignorance and ego-clinging.[6]” That Kundalini can be extremely helpful in the removal of ignorance?

 

No I don't follow the Dzogchen path either, I merely agree with the Tibetan Buddhist understanding of the central and 2 side channels.

 

Kundalini released into a fully prepared system might well "burn away the dross of ignorance and ego-clinging", but this would be my sticking point, that the system has to be prepared first, otherwise the energy would likely give an empty result at best and at worst could lead to kundalini problems. 

 

 

 

Edited March 2, 2018 by Bindi

[Bindi]

@Jeff, so it's not a system that I follow, but this description of the Vajrayana system is pretty well how I perceive the subtle energy channels. Which channel was associated with the penis I wasn't clear on before as I have only pursued this information previously to a limited extent. Also of interest, in the last paragraph "meditating on the crown chakra is important for consciousness projection, either to another world or into anoher body" sounds like something you focus on, but this is not the only meditation which is important, and they don't mention what meditation on ajna chakra is important for. 

 

The Vajrayana system states that the central channel (avadhūtī) begins at the point of the third eye like the of Lord Shiva, curves up to the crown of the head, and then goes straight down to the lower body. 

 

There are two side channels, the rasanā and lalanā, which start at their respective nostrils and then travel down to the lower body. The apāna vāyu (down-moving wind, where "wind" means the invisible power to move) governs the lower terminations of the three channels. The lower end of the central channel ends at the rectum. The lower end of the lalanā ends in the urinary tract. The lower end of the rasanā channel emits semen.

 

...completion stage practices, where an attempt is made to bring the subtle airs or winds of the body into the central channel, to realize the clear light of bliss and emptiness, and to attain buddhahood (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Clear Light of Bliss: A Tantric Meditation Manual).

 

...The side channels run parallel to the center channel, except at locations such as the navel, heart, throat, and crown (i.e., the chakras) where the two side channels twist around the central channel. At the navel, throat, and crown, there is a twofold knot caused by each side channel twisting once around the central channel. 

 

At the heart wheel there is a sixfold knot, where each side channel twists around three times. An important part of completion stage practice involves loosening and undoing these knots.

 

...focusing on the subnavel area is important for the practice of tummo, or inner-fire. Meditating on the heart chakra is important for realizing clear light. Meditating on the throat chakra is important for lucid dreaming and the practices of dream yoga. And meditating on the crown chakra is important for consciousness projection, either to another world or into another body.

 

Wisdom Quarterly: American Buddhist Journal

Edited March 2, 2018 by Bindi

[dawei]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

Sure. Tummo is a completion stage practice. It would be implied that all such activity is for advanced practioners. 

 

I believe tummo is a very advanced practice that Tibetan practitioners have shown they can dry a wet towel laid on their back.  The only westerner to accomplish the practice is 'The Ice Man'...   This does not seem to have any relation to kundalini, which I know nothing about but had a temporary experience of.    Carry on.