Buddha and Shen

[Eden]

Would a Buddha have a "perfected" Shen? Idk if "perfected" is the right word, but their minds are said to be absorbed in contemplation on non conceptual voidness or empty clarity 24/7 365 and because of their Clarity or Omniscience they have Bodhicitta or the boundless Compassion and Vigor to help others... so wouldnt that translate into a perfected Shen? It seems the Taoist approach is to build from bottom up, ie to prevent leakage of Jing as a pre-requisite, then through meditation and right breathing the Chi becomes full and this eventually begins to nourish the Shen... But what about a Buddha, how does it work if someone suddenly attains Enlightenment, how are the three treasures affected ? Would it be a top down approach where the Shen is full and this nourishes the Chi and the Jing? 

Does the Jing Chi Shen only apply to a human body? Do Devas have Jing Chi and Shen? Or is it only when in a human body that these things can be cultivated and nourished?

[Rara]

I build from the bottom up because it feels right to do so. Others would argue that the Buddhist way, is the way. New agers seem obsessed with third eye and so on.

 

But the end result is that it works for whoever is practicing it. How can we define shen and how it is really cultivated? Anyone can walk around and claim their shen has been nourished. Anyone can walk around and claim enlightenment.

 

Do you feel calm, at peace and balanced? If so, your method will be working for you and it won't matter how you build.

 

So really, I have no answer. Only that these ideas go far beyond what is useful for me. I'm more occupied with breathing into my belly to concern myself with these

Edited March 10, 2018 by Rara
I missed a whole sentence this time. After the fact and all that. Maybe I should just wait a few minutes before hitting send in future hehe

[Boundlesscostfairy]

What is the most basic definition of Shen?

[七星門]

3 hours ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

What is the most basic definition of Shen?

 

I wondered the same, excerpting from the "jing, qi, shen" article in the Routledge Encyclopedia of Taoism. 

 

Quote

Shen evolved from the original sense of "divinity" and outer and inner "spirits" into the designation of a single force, whose connotations include those of psychic essence and even of "soul." To some extent, shen applies to anything that exists within the cosmos but has no material aspect, such as deities and human thought. 

 

 

Quote

In neidan...Shen is compared to fire, particularly the fire of desire that stirs up the passions and feeds the sense organs. 

 

 

Quote

Precelestial and Postcelestial...The distinction between "precelestial spirit" (xiantian zhi shen) also called Original Spirit (yuanshen), and "postcelestial spirit" (houtian zhi shen) follows along similar lines. [Referring to a discussion of qi, people are born with precelestial that reaches an acme & declines as they age, whereas postcelestial is available in the world & may be used to fortify flagging the precelestial form.] In neidan, the transitioning of the latter to the former occurs by means of precelestial breath, i.e. through the progressive development of a subtle and tenuous form of breathing (so-called "embryonic breathing") that allows one to reach a luminous state. Thus, one progressively develops a "Yin spirit" (yinshen), a process that is accompanied by a feeling of luminosity in the region of the head. The shen rises to the upper Cinnabar Field (the *niwan), from which it leaves the body through the sinciput in an experience known as "egress of the Spirit" (*chushen). The mind realizes a state in which time, space, and material limits disappear, and is transmuted into "Yang spirit" (yangshen). 

 

[doc benway]

I think "perfected" is a good word to use and I also think you are on the right track.

 

Here is a discussion of shen that i think is worth reading:

http://www.itmonline.org/shen/chap1.htm

 

In the tradition I follow, Yungdrung Bön, the qualities of enlightenment are often referred to as "perfected" qualities. 

Those qualities are always already present but are obscured by internal and external factors.

The practices we focus on are designed to remove all obstacles to spontaneous, effortless, and pure expression of those perfected qualities.

 

Similarly, shen is related to the human experience and expression of the divine as mentioned above (from the Chinese perspective, not the Abrahamic one). Daoist practices that lead to the cultivation and expression of shen are practices that remove external and internal obstacles and allow shen to manifest without impediment = wu wei. 

 

From my perspective, the perspective of a practitioner only - not a scholar or philosopher, there is a profound similarity between the Dzogchen view and the Daoist view. 

 

 

 

[Walker]

On 3/5/2018 at 6:23 AM, Eden said:

Would a Buddha have a "perfected" Shen? Idk if "perfected" is the right word, but their minds are said to be absorbed in contemplation on non conceptual voidness or empty clarity 24/7 365 and because of their Clarity or Omniscience they have Bodhicitta or the boundless Compassion and Vigor to help others... so wouldnt that translate into a perfected Shen? It seems the Taoist approach is to build from bottom up, ie to prevent leakage of Jing as a pre-requisite, then through meditation and right breathing the Chi becomes full and this eventually begins to nourish the Shen... But what about a Buddha, how does it work if someone suddenly attains Enlightenment, how are the three treasures affected ? Would it be a top down approach where the Shen is full and this nourishes the Chi and the Jing? 

Does the Jing Chi Shen only apply to a human body? Do Devas have Jing Chi and Shen? Or is it only when in a human body that these things can be cultivated and nourished?

 

Like Steve, I think you're on the right track. Chinese-speaking Buddhists don't typically speak an awful lot about shen unless they've also been steeped in the milieux of Daoism, Chinese medicine, qigong, and/or folk religion, all of which tend to use the word shen quite liberally.

 

On the other hand, Daoists of the last 1,000 years do talk about Buddhism quite a bit and their definition of "buddha" would include the notion of a perfected shen. What is often called "Complete Reality Daoism" (全真道) in English could potentially also be called "Complete Perfection" Daoism (for the bilingual nerds: note how the 真 here is translated by many scholars as "Perfected" in the name of "真武/Zhenwu/The Pefected Warrior"). One explanation is that this "complete perfection" refers to a completely perfect jing, qi, and shen. 

 

As for how the three treasures are affected "if someone suddenly attains enlightenment," the answer is that they are one. I think you can fairly say that "complete perfection," then, implies this merging (or returning) into oneness.

 

As for your final questions, jing, qi, and shen are in fact never not one. We speak about them as separate entities for the purposes of transmitting theory and certain practices, but that is only one way of doing things. We can at the same time also speak of them as one. Both perspectives are accurate, as they're just perspectives--they can contradict each other without cancelling each other out. However, as to whether or not devas have them, I have no idea. There seems to be disagreement within Buddhism as to whether or not devas can cultivate; Daoists, on the other hand, seem to be generally open to the idea that deities can and do continue to cultivate. I suppose that, being deities, they have only or mostly prior heaven jing, qi, and shen.

 

On 3/16/2018 at 12:36 AM, steve said:

In the tradition I follow, Yungdrung Bön, the qualities of enlightenment are often referred to as "perfected" qualities. 

Those qualities are always already present but are obscured by internal and external factors.

The practices we focus on are designed to remove all obstacles to spontaneous, effortless, and pure expression of those perfected qualities.

 

My Daoist teachers have said much the same.

 

On 3/16/2018 at 12:36 AM, steve said:

From my perspective, the perspective of a practitioner only - not a scholar or philosopher, there is a profound similarity between the Dzogchen view and the Daoist view. 

 

I've only viewed Dzogchen from afar by occasionally dipping into Longchenpa's books or listening to Chokyi Nyingma lectures and so forth, but I think you're quite right. 

[Small Fur]

On 3/4/2018 at 2:23 PM, Eden said:

Would a Buddha have a "perfected" Shen? Idk if "perfected" is the right word, but their minds are said to be absorbed in contemplation on non conceptual voidness or empty clarity 24/7 365 and because of their Clarity or Omniscience they have Bodhicitta or the boundless Compassion and Vigor to help others... so wouldnt that translate into a perfected Shen? It seems the Taoist approach is to build from bottom up, ie to prevent leakage of Jing as a pre-requisite, then through meditation and right breathing the Chi becomes full and this eventually begins to nourish the Shen... But what about a Buddha, how does it work if someone suddenly attains Enlightenment, how are the three treasures affected ? Would it be a top down approach where the Shen is full and this nourishes the Chi and the Jing? 

Does the Jing Chi Shen only apply to a human body? Do Devas have Jing Chi and Shen? Or is it only when in a human body that these things can be cultivated and nourished?

 

 

 

Question: Would a Buddha have a "perfected" Shen?

Answer: Yes, one who has attained Buddhahood has a "perfected" shen or has total Consciousness.  The state of eternal void allows for unceasing peace manifesting from the pure clarity of emptiness. It is this state of wisdom and being that is essential to the total liberation of self and others.

 

 

 

Question: How does it work if someone suddenly attains Enlightenment, how are the three treasures affected?

Answer: There can be many stages, phases or progressions to enlightened being. But in general, once you come into enlightenment, a sacred connection is created between you and a purity that is transcendent of dimensions. From this connection a sacred substance is divined from which one can begin the process of healing the entire system (via the transmuted perfection of the Three Treasures) and this in turn potentiates the path for total liberation. At some point then (whether immediate through enlightenment- shen; or gradual through body energetics- jing and qi), the full depth of cultivation can only be attained through Consciousness. This is why most humans who cultivate do not obtain the great longevity (because they are fixated on form and do not realize the Consciousness necessary to exist fully) of Earthly Immortals, and why most Earthly Immortals do not progress to the Spiritual and Celestial levels (because they are focused on energetics but have not entirely realized inherent True Nature)- because of (the lack of) Consciousness (shen). In essence, the Lesser, Middle and Great Paths are really differentiated foundationaly only by the quality, perspective and depth of Consciousness from which the capacity for transmutations are actually created and fulfilled.

Thus the Lesser Path (ie. those whose interests are in the health and the wellness of their own bodies, both general physical and energetic) is for those whose minds are concerned with mortality and form (and therefore still have much issue of desire, attachment and illusion to overcome); the Middle Path (ie. those whose interest are in longevity and therefore also the more subtle and distinct conditions of energy across manifestations of diverse forms) is for those whose sense is in spirit (and therefore still need to refine mental and emotional energies to clear their subtle systems); and the Great Path (ie. those whose innate sense rests in liberation) is for those whose spiritual essence is rooted in Emptiness (ie. those who are prepared and able to cleanse all karmic conditions to full absolution). Though attainment on the Lesser Path could lead to progressions of more advanced paths but certainly may not; the Great Path inherently fulfills all other paths, however it requires greater integrity, discipline, humility, and virtue beyond self-interest to fulfill. (Note then that self-interest remains a source of motivation in both the Lesser and Middle Paths, whereas in the Great Path one is able to traverse free of desire and self-interest and hence can see the Mysterious Gates and Passages and root in Nothingness.)

The nature of cultivating or refining the (gross and subtle) system is cyclical: personally (ie. continuous life patterns), existentially (ie. the perpetuation and progressions of collective consciousness across time), spiritually (ie. reincarnation and existence across dimension), metaphysically (ie. formless states and energies), and systemically through the koshas (sheaths of the system) via zhong mai (the Central Channel where the transmutations of the Three Treasures are facilitated at each level of the triple burner in the dan tiens). Just as cultivating a clear and healthy body allows for more radiant Consciousness, a profound Consciousness can lead to the cultivation of a more radiant form.

Each person needs to begin this process according to the level or place at which they are ready for and understand in themselves- for some this is with body or forms, for others this is with mind and emotions or the spirit. For most it is somewhere in between and involves clarifying in stillness and movement, the energies of the system through a diversity of areas in their life. And in general, all of the internal work is made easier by also maintaining the external- meaning a safe, steady, clean and healthy lifestyle; this is as true at early stages as it is at later stages and why most sages live in relative seclusion free of distraction and waste. When you wonder what the most imperative areas for you are to focus, it is generally the areas where you struggle the most (note that this may or may not be the area you are most interested in working on; and while it may not be the easiest or most immediate area you come to, it is still nonetheless, the most imperative). These could be practical things as minuscule or seemingly trite as addressing areas of tensions or stagnations in the body by regularly stretching and doing yoga, or even keeping a clean space and releasing long buried items by maintaining a consistently clean space and completely purging ‘skeletons’; to confronting and healing overwhelming things in your life such as fears, addictions, intimacy issues and chronic illness to the very best of your personal ability and in a fullest sense of self-responsibility. Take heart that in your greatest area of struggle also lie the potential to unlock your greatest strengths- this is something you learn when you both study and observe the existential ontology of constitutional predisposition, especially as they relate to your spiritual path. When self-observing that most critical aspect of challenge in yourself, do your best to see past it's form (be this a belief/concept, a strong emotion, a bodily illness, etc.,.) and relax (sung) into the insight and understanding of its root (and by root, I mean what is beyond the existential); doing so will help initiate a path through Awakening.

 

[I want to note again here (as I have in previous other posts) that seeing the Unnameable is not the same as enlightenment. This is an area where I feel many people who have not cultivated their consciousness deeply enough misunderstand (and is a reason why there are stories of Taoists who witness the Unnameable and simply choose to walk away, or people will cultivate to high levels and then stop, stray or become delusional- the latter being stories of gurus who fall prey to desires, for instance). Enlightenment is- as I mentioned above, a sacred connection: not simply an understanding, the foundation of an awakening or series of awakenings, or necessarily even the product of profound realizations. Enlightenment is therefore, as much something which is bestowed as it is a process of becoming, and one needs to come into a very deep place within and without of essential and profound virtue and integrity in rightful being for this to occur. Though it may seem astonishing to some that certain individuals come into what appears as sudden or even gradual enlightenment through a variety of forms or unusual impasses, each individual who has and will, have within the depths of their heart and spirit a great measure of purity and capacity to be in integrity of the sacred even if it is not readily apparent or understood by others, because to most it will not be readily apparent since most are living in projection, illusion and from distraction. So if you are one of these people, keep looking inward and follow that inner light in profound faith without the doubt and fear of a lesser consciousness and even through conditions that may seem to appear as failure and hurt. Live from this unified faith in full presence- faith does NOT mean having belief, having wishful emotions, or living blindly and thus unconsciously.]

 

 

 

Question: Does jing, chi, shen only apply to a human body? Do devas have jing, chi and shen? Or is it only when in a human body that these things can be cultivated and nourished?

Answer: I will not get into the details of distinctions here, but each of the Three Treasures have pre- and post- natal conditions, and each of these are as different from and integral to each other as they are to vital essence(s)... this is a subtle distinction since in many writings the terms are used inter-changeably, especially in modern writings. Each of the Three Treasures can be cultivated into its individual yuan (original form), and then into vital essence (singular). Deities are made of the pure light of Yuan Shen from which they can generate or affect the vital essences within the universe, including in the human body. (Note: as your question included the mention of "nourishment", I want to point out that when we are cultivating for a very healthy life, the emphasis is on nourishment- ie. tonification, conservation, strengthening... these things are for the benefit of mortality; whereas when we are cultivating with enlightenment as the foundation in our hearts, the emphasis and core is on refinement- ie. purifying, releasing, simplifying... these qualities are related to the nature of immortality.)

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Small Fur

[exorcist_1699]

On 2018/3/5 at 6:23 AM, Eden said:

Would a Buddha have a "perfected" Shen? Idk if "perfected" is the right word, but their minds are said to be absorbed in contemplation on non conceptual voidness or empty clarity 24/7 365 and because of their Clarity or Omniscience they have Bodhicitta or the boundless Compassion and Vigor to help others... so wouldnt that translate into a perfected Shen? It seems the Taoist approach is to build from bottom up, ie to prevent leakage of Jing as a pre-requisite, then through meditation and right breathing the Chi becomes full and this eventually begins to nourish the Shen... But what about a Buddha, how does it work if someone suddenly attains Enlightenment, how are the three treasures affected ? Would it be a top down approach where the Shen is full and this nourishes the Chi and the Jing? 

Does the Jing Chi Shen only apply to a human body? Do Devas have Jing Chi and Shen? Or is it only when in a human body that these things can be cultivated and nourished?

 

 

From Daoist perspective  , the Buddha Heart is not  just  Shen , but Yang Shen, with " Yang "  added  to emphasize  that it is a result of a process of  refinement  : jing => qi => Shen . It also tells us  that it is a Mind no longer  entangled by the physical body ,  but a free one that can enter and leave it  at  its free will ;   with its destiny grasped in its  own hands unlike a yin-typed spirit once left the physical body ,  becomes lost and succumbed to unknown force . 

 

Likely  people need to  get  enough jing  to initialize qi ,  and enough qi  to  jump to  the status of Shen ; many people who can not initialize qi is because they do not have enough jing in their  bodies   ,  say , the old guys .  And people who  can not grasp what Shen is  likely is because they do not get enough  qi, with jing embedded  , accumulated  .  Daoism  also emphasizes that  after accumulating enough jing and qi , and let your mind do nothing to intervene, then you can enter  a  breathless status,  which is  a prelude of  embryonic  breathing , important for generating Shen ..

 

Edited September 30, 2021 by exorcist_1699