Mair 14:2

[Marblehead]

Tang, the Grand Steward of Shang, {{This signifies the state of Sung where the descendants of the Shang dynasty were settled during the successor Chou dynasty.}} asked Master Chuang about humaneness.

"Tigers and wolves are humane," said Master Chuang.

"What do you mean?"

"Fathers and cubs are partial to each other," said Master Chuang.  "How can we consider them inhumane?"

"May I ask about ultimate humaneness?"

"Ultimate humaneness is impartial," said Master Chuang.

"I have heard," said the Grand Steward, "that to be impartial is to be without love and that to be without love is to be unfilial.  May we say that ultimate humaneness implies unfilialness?"  {{Hsiao (also translated as "filiality;" "filial piety;" "filial duty;" or "filial devotion") is a cornerstone of Confucian ideology.}}

"Not so;" said Master Chuang.  "Ultimate humaneness is exalted, so of course filialness is inadequate to describe it.  This is not to say that humaneness surpasses filialness, rather that it does not affect filialness.  If someone journeys south until reaching Ying {{The capital of the state of Ch'u, which constituted the southernmost reach of the Chinese orbit in Chuang Chou's time.}} and then faces north, he won't be able to see Dark Mountain.  {{An imaginary place of mystic associations in the distant north.}}  Why is this?  It's because he's so far away from it.  Therefore, it is said, to be filial out of respect is easy, but to be filial out of love is difficult.  To be filial out of love is easy, but to forget one's parents is difficult.  To forget one's parents is easy, but to cause one's parents to forget themselves is difficult.  To cause one's parents to forget themselves is easy, but to forget all under heaven is difficult.  To forget all under heaven is easy, but to cause all under heaven to forget themselves is difficult.  Virtue that leaves behind Yao and Shun and does not act will bestow benefit and nurture to a myriad generations, without all under heaven knowing.  How can one merely heave a deep sigh and talk about humaneness and filialness?  Filialness, brotherliness, humaneness, righteousness, loyalty, trustworthiness, honor, and incorruptibility - these all enslave virtue through self-constraint, but they are not worth putting a premium on.

Therefore, it is said, ultimate nobility would discard the dignities of a state; ultimate wealth would discard the riches of a state; ultimate eminence would discard fame and praise.  Thus, the Way never alters."

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

but to cause all under heaven to forget themselves is difficult. 

what?

 

 

Hence it is said, "Filial duty as a part of reverence is easy, but filial duty as a part of love is difficult. If it be easy as a part of love, yet it is difficult to forget one's parents. It may be easy for me to forget my parents, but it is difficult to make my parents forget me. If it were easy to make my parents forget me, it is difficult for me to forget all men in the world. If it were easy to forget all men in the world, it is difficult to make them all forget me."

/Legge/

Edited March 5, 2018 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

Please don't ask me for any explanations to this section.  (Unless I first go to Watson's rendering of it.)

 

[Stosh]

To make anything of this chapter would be difficult ,  To forget this chapter would be easy . 

[Stosh]

You reacted? I gotta get used to this change to the like thing.   The little faces seem a bit sarcastic. Something more Spock saying , 'Please , elaborate'. would be good. 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Stosh

[Rara]

Wow, you're doing the outer chapters. Cool!

 

I picked a poop one to come back to but thanks anyway MH

[Stosh]

7 hours ago, Marblehead said:

 Therefore, it is said, to be dutiful out of respect is easy, but to be dutiful out of love is difficult.  To be respectful out of love is easy, but to forget familiarity with one's parents is difficult.  To forget they are one's parents is easy,  but to cause one's parents to forget themselves as parents  is difficult. 

I think this particular excerpt is playing on various meanings of the same word, and in the translation, this has been overlooked rendering it less sensible. I would leave the particular word choices to someone versed in Chinese, but I am making some guesses to show my point that it becomes readable if one uses a bit of variety in English. 

Humane-ness is a generalized respect or concern for others , the filial-ness is more of a particular subordinate or respectful stance between familiar individuals. IMO 

Genuine emotions are very contingent on situation , they don't fit hard and fast rules , and so expectation of the fulfillment the labels of the virtues 'enslave' or 'force an insincere compliance' . 

Expecting rigorous adherence to supposed indicators of the love of ones kids for their parents, or parents for their kids isnt understanding this human factor. 

Assuming the kid has no love of his parents because he isn't perfectly compliant, OR expecting the parents to forget their role as parents as the kid gets older , isn't seeing rightly.  Its important to understand that the bonds are still there despite ,...  stuff that comes up. 

Likewise, humanness may not mean that one always has to take action to rectify, that one has to be embroiled in.. that one has to take responsibility for ,,, the unfortunate stuff one sees. 

Its just not that simple. 

 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Perhaps "Hold to humaneness." is all that needs be said.  All the "this as opposed to that" was just too much for me.

 

And "humaneness" does not restrict one from fixing what needs be fixed.

 

[Stosh]

13 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Perhaps "Hold to humaneness." is all that needs be said.  All the "this as opposed to that" was just too much for me.

 

And "humaneness" does not restrict one from fixing what needs be fixed.

 

" humaneness, righteousness, etc ..these all enslave virtue through self-constraint, but they are not worth putting a premium on."

 

Fine with me if you hold to that opinion Mh but this translation appears to run contrary to it , and in fact the whole point is to undermine adherence to holding to the 'word of the virtue' and the tendency to act out 'what one envisions' as being best.

Agreed, ,No you're not restricted from taking assertive actions , but you're also not necessarily definable as being a bad guy if you don't. 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

So what do you want?  You want me to go beyond humaneness and attain the level of the De of Dao?  Remember, nature can appear to be pretty cruel sometimes when it need to achieve balance.  Thousands and even millions of people will perish in the process.

 

I rather stick with humaneness.  That way I can still be close to being beyond good and evil.

 

[Stosh]

57 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

So what do you want?  You want me to go beyond humaneness and attain the level of the De of Dao?  Remember, nature can appear to be pretty cruel sometimes when it need to achieve balance.  Thousands and even millions of people will perish in the process.

 

I rather stick with humaneness.  That way I can still be close to being beyond good and evil.

 

I'm not wanting you to be anything necessarily , I'm just pointing out that the text as translated contravened the summary  position you were advocating.

Humane-ness in the text as translated ,  is not the impartiality of being beyond good and evil, or doing the right thing by leaving something alone. Its akin to being a busybody or pretender, or pushing ones bias on the world. 

If you put asserting ones will on the stuff going on around you on a scale of 1 to ten , way up there at the tippy top of being the most kind and selfless, you get back to not attempting to sway events as you want them to go at all, that's what is being held as the ultimate humaneness . Butting out so that other folks can live their lives best they can without 'my interference'. 

 

So as I explain this , I am 'butting in' , I am promoting the understanding of the text as I see it. I am not being the ultimate in humane. 

The ultimate in humane according to this translation is -keeping my mouth shut and if some reader comes along and gets the exact reverse meaning out of the text than was intended , that's their problem.  But , you see , I am not all that perfectly impartial style humane. Not the De of Dao.  

See,  If I was perfectly humane and just kept my mouth shut , noone would have anything to hold me at fault for etc, my life would be all that much easier, I wouldn't spend any time and effort on the behalf of others. I in fact , have the humane habits this text suggests is faulty.  Its the Christian upbringing I guess. 

 

This reminds me of a little story. 

A long long time ago , a group of Missionaries went to the heart of Africa, and found a tribe who looked like they needed some good food, They provided milk to all the town ; Which happened to all be lactose intolerant , reacted badly to this protein source and all got sick.  

The end 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Stosh

[Wu Ming Jen]

Being humane is not always humane.  Say a kid kills people in a school "it" receives the death sentence for the crime this is a humane act.

 

To protect a healthy society from people that harm it is a noble cause. Being human means divine when a human is no longer divine by their own actions they are no longer human.

 

We could talk about non humans incapable of humaneness. Humaneness is a word with out gender, race or species but is built off of the word human which is species specific.

 

Heading north you turn you back on the south Heading south you turn your back on the north insert any yin yang relationship good bad whatever.

 

I read it as master chuang saying humanness is not ultimite it is limited in scope. Those with true humanness quickly discard it. They are so spiritually wealthy they have no need for humanness. Mostly I think the passage is an argument directed at the different schools of thought like saying true humanness is always humane. true kindness is always kind that is only partial understanding which dependis on the self to evaluate what's in it for me.

[Marblehead]

Well, come to think about it, I doubt I could defend myself calling myself humane.

 

But sure, to be beyond good and evil is ultimate.  To be non-interfering in the life of others is perhaps ultimate.

 

I guess I miss that goal too.

 

But I do try to mind my own business when possible.

 

Sure, we could say that the Sage is beyond good and evil - beyond humaneness.  I'm not one.  I'm sure you already knew that.

 

 

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Well, come to think about it, I doubt I could defend myself calling myself humane.

 

But sure, to be beyond good and evil is ultimate.  To be non-interfering in the life of others is perhaps ultimate.

 

I guess I miss that goal too.

 

But I do try to mind my own business when possible.

 

Sure, we could say that the Sage is beyond good and evil - beyond humaneness.  I'm not one.  I'm sure you already knew that.

 

 

Me neither , nor is anyone IMO , but its a goal to consider heading towards ,when the world seems vague about what one should do. 

 

 

[Marblehead]

Hehehe.  I still get in trouble on occasion for doing what I think is the best thing to do.  Nothing serious though as I am careful to not violate the laws of the people.