Does any one think that The Tao Te Ching is about writing poetry?

[Boundlesscostfairy]

Hmmm, it would be amazing..if any members here rewrote the Tao-Te Ching..to reflect that "poetic" bent?

[silent thunder]

When I was really drawn to saturating my awareness in the DDJ and finally having a more intimate and personal relationship with it... I set about writing my own version.

 

I figured the best way to get the concepts imbedded, was to run them through my own system, digest them so to speak, let'em set a while, then draw them back out, in my own words.  I have a deep resonant love of haiku, so my version naturally bent that direction until I surrendered to it.  Eventually the process gathered inertia and then shortly thereafter a first draft was complete.

 

It took a few months, but I was between projects and could devote my entire life to it.  So I set about finding as many copies of translations as I could.  Then I would spend however long was needed with one verse at a time, reading, ruminating, rereading dozens of versions... sitting with it, regarding it as I'd walk around my neighborhood, running errands, making meals, playing with my son was particularly helpful...  Eventually the thoughts would come back out in my own words and I'd refine them into haiku form, paring down words and using e-prime language throughout, where appropriate.

 

I now have a direct sense of the resonance of the concepts.  There have always been sections of the DDJ that were troubling and hard to relate to (the politically slanted verses in particular), but now, they resonate in my very bones when I encounter a verse again.  All those days spent ruminating, allowing space for the concepts to flow in mind and experiential awareness.

 

It was a major shifting point in my life.

[Michael Sternbach]

On 9.3.2018 at 11:51 AM, Stosh said:

I dont know if the story is true, but heard that a copy was given to some of the early european visitors... and so its possible that , at the time, they considered it to be detrimental to societal order.

Here guys, chew on this! 

 

I once saw an early translation that had one of the pithier statements reversed in meaning, without a doubt to make it acceptable to the average Western reader at the time.

[Michael Sternbach]

The DDJ could be about writing poetry. It could be about running a business too. Or about martial arts. Or about cooking noodles... 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Michael Sternbach

[Stosh]

25 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

The DDJ could be about writing poetry. It could be about running a business too. Or about martial arts. Or about cooking noodles... 

That's why its called the Way.  For you martial guys , the rationale is the same , under extended over extended , overestimated , entrenched , losing ones mission , too little commitment , too much emotion. The ideas are scale-able cross-applicable invertable, etc  But the Way , is not the One single venue of poetry. 

( I think I would've liked that inverted reading ,, it should be just as valid.)

[OldDog]

23 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

The DDJ could be about writing poetry. It could be about running a business too. Or about martial arts. Or about cooking noodles... 

In my readings the notion that the lessons in DDJ and other texts are scalable certainly seems present; if not in so many words, then by comparison of how concepts can be seen as applied in governing a country vs oneself, actions of a ruler vs sage, etc. Its not too far a leap to apply to other categories, wherever you can see such analogies. 

 

I think that is part of the value of the ancient writings. The writers, in a reductionist sort of way, deliberated on things, compared and contrasted, discussed and debated,  and identified the archtypical concepts and then expressed them in a way that allows later generations to be able to apply them in different contexts. 

 

Just, MHO

Edited April 28, 2018 by OldDog
poor grammer fix

[OldDog]

On 4/27/2018 at 8:48 AM, silent thunder said:

When I was really drawn to saturating my awareness in the DDJ and finally having a more intimate and personal relationship with it... I set about writing my own version.

 

What a remarkable thing to have done!  I'm sure for most of us it is more a mental and/or an intuitive process. That you actually wrote down your inderstanding in such a thorough and complete manner is remarkable. 

 

I wonder ... how long ago was that? If awhile, and you go back and reread, how does it seem to you? Do you find your understanding has changed significantly over time? 

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, OldDog said:

In my readings the notion that the lessons in DDJ and other texts are scalable certainly seems present; if not in so many words, then by comparison of how concepts can be seen as applied in governing a country vs oneself, actions of a ruler vs sage, etc. Its not too far a leap to apply to other categories, wherever you can see such analogies. 

 

I think that is part of the value of the ancient writings. The writers, in a reductionist sort of way, deliberated on things, compared and contrasted, discussed and debated,  and identified the archtypical concepts and then expressed them in a way that allows later generations to be able to apply them in different contexts. 

 

Just, MHO

 

Right there with you. I am also thinking of the I-Ching here, whose phrases are applicable to all kinds of different situations for the same reason. I have actually heard of a method of divination based on the Dao-De-Ching as well. While I have no experience with that system per se, I used to sometimes open the DDC at a random page and was frequently amazed how it seemed to speak to and advise me on my current situation.

[9th]

 

[Michael Sternbach]

🙉

[silent thunder]

1 hour ago, OldDog said:

 

What a remarkable thing to have done!  I'm sure for most of us it is more a mental and/or an intuitive process. That you actually wrote down your inderstanding in such a thorough and complete manner is remarkable. 

 

I wonder ... how long ago was that? If awhile, and you go back and reread, how does it seem to you? Do you find your understanding has changed significantly over time? 

Six years ago to the day I was deep in the middle of the process. 

 

I felt the draw and sank into the process in late March of 2012 and by Solstice that year, after several months of sifting, yielding and allowing the concepts to permeate and emerge again on their own, I found it had settled, more or less into the version I have with me now... there is a hand written copy sitting only a few feet from me in my hotel room as I write this.   I bring it with me whenever I travel as travel prompts an opening in perception... so it's with me while driving up the West Coast on a visit with an old friend for a few days.  After my recent experiences in hospital and hovering near death back in January, I am anticipating some verses to resonate in new harmonies. 

 

And I find myself revisiting the verses regularly, at a sort of rhythm, not just my own, but still multiple versions.  Something will occur at work, on a walk, playing with my son, or often reading things here... and a verse will spring to mind and I'll revisit it.  It's a living, fluid process and so some phrases are still naturally shifting to this day... though the changes at this point are usually a word or two, sometimes a phrase will be altered to reflect my unfolding relationship with the concepts.  

 

There remain a few verses that remain, unsatisfying to my monkey mind, though at this point, I suspect, my ability with words and the nature of words themselves are taxed heavily in their ability to transmit such body wisdoms and deeply natural, living processes, into artifacts of mind.  So I've relaxed into allowing them to remain unsatisfying.

 

My relationship with it, is a flowing, living, fluid process... and distinctly yielding.   It's like I am dancing with it, but I'm not leading the dance.  I initiate the dance, but then yield to the process and flow with it, almost dissolve in it.  The concepts and I are always co-mingling, yet my forcing mind recedes and the only approximation of effort is in cultivating inner space to allow understanding to well up naturally of its own inertia.

 

Looking back now, the shift that occurred during that time stands out as a marker for the initiation into a deep paradigm shift and a painfully, achingly beautiful and unrelenting process of healing and awakening in my psyche, heart and body.  Not to mention a relentless stripping away of previously held notions into a glorious acceptance of the ever unfolding uncertainty of living.

 

 

[OldDog]

22 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

I am also thinking of the I-Ching here,

Generally, yes, I think so. However, I tend to think of the Yijing as something more. I have little interest in divination. ( I just have not found a conviincing argument that allows me to accept that there is some "devine" mystic connection of specific personal events to a particular guiding hexagram.) I look on thr Yijing more as a book of wisdom. That it is a very detailed text that illustrates how change is likely to take place based upon natural evolution of events. I had started a more detailed study of the Yijing at the beginning of the year but have since been diverted to a more detailed study of the DDJ, especially an effort at finding a more detailed context for understanding the Dao. Part of that study has been considering the poetic nature of the text. While I do not speak or read Chinese, I am convinced that some of the best translators of DDJ are.those that are able to provide a consistent reliable translation while preserving the poetic sense of the verses.

[Alchemical Walrus]

Sure.

Poetry follows the poet.
The poet "follows the earth.
Earth follows heaven.
Heaven follows the Dao." (Daodejing 25)

 

Thus I'd say a book about the Dao can be said to be a book about poetry.

[awaken]

絕對不是詩

 

definitely not poetry