The Human Cost of Talking Trump

[liminal_luke]

What Happened?

 

Two long-term Bums, Brian and Taomeow, appear to have left TDB after their character was besmirched by another Bum in the Trump Talk thread. (Or perhaps they are merely on temporary leave?  Time will tell.)  In one case the besmirching happened at the hands of someone opposed to Trump; in the other, at the hands of a Trump supporter.  

 

Who do we want to be?

 

I believe we`ve come to a critical juncture as a community, a point where we need to make some hard decisions about the future of the board.   It seems to me there`s a human cost to having an off-grid mosh pit of sorts where people are given free rein to elbow each other to the ground with minimal staff intervention.  There are so many places, both on-line and in real life, where we can talk politics, and so few places free of such talk.  So many places where people can malign each other freely, and so few places where peace and harmony prevails. I think it`s time we return to doing what we do best: discussing spirituality.  

 

Please note: I don`t mean to comment negatively on the way the board is being moderated and administrated.  Staff has a hard job, and I`m not eager to join their ranks.   

 

 

[thelerner]

I hope you're wrong about them leaving, that thread tends to be a cess pool, imo.  Bringing out the worst and craziest in people.  Sorry it wasn't tossed into the the pit/chaos. 

[Jeff]

Currently 10,820 replies... We are the talk trump thread forum.  I personally don't get it, but such discussions seem to be the fabric of the membership.

[cheya]

Not so sure about "the fabric of the membership"

. Curious how many members have actually contributed, and how many do so regularly. Seems like a pretty small percentage to me... but I carefully do not follow it..

 

And in the few times I do go there, I am invariably sorry afterwards.

 

[Kar3n]

The only besmirching done in this latest incident in the Trump thread was done by the person who chose to leave, but really has not done so. The response by admin was not satisfactory to the member and they chose to attack another member's moral character and post a homophobic rant based on some made-up and improper definition of the idiom used.

 

Two pinned topics discussing the use, expectations and reporting issues within off-grid... 

 

 

[s1va]

I don't visit off-topic often.  Still, 10,800+ replies in one thread!  That is a staggering number for such a topic in a spiritual forum.

[liminal_luke]

6 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

The only besmirching done in this latest incident in the Trump thread was done by the person who chose to leave...

 

 

There`s probably plenty of blame that could be cast in both of these incidents but it`s not my intention to do so in this thread.  Also, I don`t wish to comment negatively on the actions of staff who I believe have made a good faith effort to uphold community norms in difficult circumstances.  What I am suggesting is that the Off Grid area, and the Trump Talk thread in particular, are hurting the board. 

[joeblast]

homophobic?  oh fucks' sakes again

 

 

 

(not saying that was necessarily your assertion karen)

 

 

 

 

yall need some preparation H, because the butthurt has grown hemorrhoids around here

 

 

 

 

I only participated to troll the propagandized into the ground, knowing that this place is simply not adult enough to discuss matters openly.

[Kar3n]

2 minutes ago, joeblast said:

homophobic?  oh fucks' sakes again

As ridiculous as it is, is not the rhetoric of most homophobes that homosexuals were molested, therefore they molest? Come on, it was written in black and white. You read it.

 

Miring another in such a way is not tolerated here.

 

FYI, trolling is frowned upon too.

 

[七星門]

The political machine appears designed to disturb & divide people, everyone fighting as if their person is threatened, as if they have a personal stake in defending one of the various talking heads. It's particularly insidious in that it gives the illusion of talking learnedly on a topic when most people are usually regurgitating talking points & slogans.

 

The level of reading & engagement that people undertake on their personal time to root out this or that "conspiracy" or "cover-up" is surprising, when there are myriad things they could learn or practice--rather than honing their talking points so they can fight more vociferously over the internet--that are actually edifying. 

 

Choosing to be drawn into this sort of disturbance only succeeds in muddying the water. 

 

"By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" Matt. 7:16

 

"Best to be like water, 

Which benefits the ten thousand things 

And does not contend. 

It pools where humans disdain to dwell, 

Close to the Tao. 

 

Live in a good place. 

Keep your mind deep. 

Treat others well. 

Stand by your word. 

Keep good order. 

Do the right thing. 

Work when it's time. 

 

Only do not contend, 

And you will not go wrong." DDJ 8

[Aetherous]

6 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

There are so many places, both on-line and in real life, where we can talk politics, and so few places free of such talk.  So many places where people can malign each other freely, and so few places where peace and harmony prevails. I think it`s time we return to doing what we do best: discussing spirituality.

 

The rest of the forum is basically free of political talk...if someone is so averse to politics, they can stay in that area.

I don't care either way, and part of me thinks it'd be good if the board was 100% spiritual discussion...but the original post struck me as a bit too controlling and not introspective enough (saying this for cultivation purposes, and not merely to offend...because why else are we here?). At the time when we're advocating for change in the outer world, should be the time that we're focusing most on how we can let others do their own thing and control only ourselves.

Otherwise we end up like militant fundamentalist believers, attempting to shove our ideologies down everyone's throats, and make them live only the way we think is correct. Such an attitude is diametrically opposed to freedom, especially when we start asking for spaces where reasonable free speech (like civil discussion of politics) isn't permitted.

To be challenged by others is an opportunity for cultivation...it's not an opportunity to silence others. Silencing free speech and controlling other people is not the path of peace. The Talk Trump thread is a great opportunity for most of us to grow. The only thing is that it's up to us as individuals, if we're going to cultivate and behave proactively, or let our egos and emotions rule who we are. Just because some members make the wrong choice, or falter a little bit on the path, doesn't make it any less of an opportunity for growth.

[ralis]

33 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

The rest of the forum is basically free of political talk...if someone is so averse to politics, they can stay in that area.

I don't care either way, and part of me thinks it'd be good if the board was 100% spiritual discussion...but the original post struck me as a bit too controlling and not introspective enough (saying this for cultivation purposes, and not merely to offend...because why else are we here?). At the time when we're advocating for change in the outer world, should be the time that we're focusing most on how we can let others do their own thing and control only ourselves.

Otherwise we end up like militant fundamentalist believers, attempting to shove our ideologies down everyone's throats, and make them live only the way we think is correct. Such an attitude is diametrically opposed to freedom, especially when we start asking for spaces where reasonable free speech (like civil discussion of politics) isn't permitted.

To be challenged by others is an opportunity for cultivation...it's not an opportunity to silence others. Silencing free speech and controlling other people is not the path of peace. The Talk Trump thread is a great opportunity for most of us to grow. The only thing is that it's up to us as individuals, if we're going to cultivate and behave proactively, or let our egos and emotions rule who we are. Just because some members make the wrong choice, or falter a little bit on the path, doesn't make it any less of an opportunity for growth.

 

In your worldview there are no limits to speech? What about bigotry, racism, advocating violence, anti-Semitism and so forth? Words have power as seen in 1930’s/1940’s Germany where millions of innocents lost their lives and it started with hate speech, which offered up a scapegoat for sacrifice. 

 

‘It can’t happen here’ as many who don’t read or trust historical documents comfort themselves with. History serves as a cruel reminder that it can and does happen here. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/022652583X/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521083387&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=milton+mayer+they+thought+they+were+free&dpPl=1&dpID=514qIrAX8CL&ref=plSrch

 

Humans have a habit of repeating violence ad Infinitum. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by ralis

[Aetherous]

23 minutes ago, ralis said:

In your worldview there are no limits to speech?

 

I definitely believe in limits. 

[thelerner]

I think this is a matter of spam.  We've got a conspiracy theorist spamming the site.  And its not just uber anti-government youtubes, this guy (Joe I'll him) has written about the need to kill everyone in the Fed.  Doesn't seem harmless or political to me.  He goes further and writes we should round up their kids and murder them if they don't change there beliefs.  Recently he's posted about  the need for people in the ADL bashed (with a rubber hose?).   

 

This board isn't supposed to a platform for paranoia.  We can take some, but when its dozens, no hundreds or thousands of his posts  to the right of Alex Jones, its too much and not what our site is supposed to be about.  It's costing good members, cuddling a nasty paranoid one.   The mods are not doing him or the board any favors. 

 

 

[Aetherous]

38 minutes ago, thelerner said:

(Joe I'll him) has written about the need to kill everyone in the Fed.  Doesn't seem harmless or political to me.  He goes further and writes we should round up their kids and murder them if they don't change there beliefs

 

Joeblast said these things? While some conspiracy theories might be legitimate, these things seem very extreme and imbalanced...and that's worrying for our fellow daobum of many years, whom I've met and know is a good person! 

Those ideas definitely seem worthy of not having on the forum.

[Kar3n]

37 minutes ago, thelerner said:

The mods are not doing him or the board any favors. 

You don't appear to be doing yourself any favors here either. Rather than attacking another member and stirring the pot, how about you give the mod team some time to review your grievances. If those things were truly said, why are there no reports for posts regarding the murder of children and the feds?

 

It is amazing to me that folks here are only allowed opinions that are inline with the mainstream and are only valid if other folks agree. I don't think Joe wants or expects anyone to agree with him, and I believe he is quite okay with it. An open discussion about so-called conspiracy theories might better serve the board than personal attacks against other members.

[thelerner]

Sorry, just wondering how racist this board should be allowed to be.

 

16 hours ago, joeblast said:

and here I thought I was being lenient with regard to the criminal network that seeks to override all national sovereignties and have the entire earth submit to them and pay a very substantial percentage of their hard earned efforts merely for the privilege of getting thieved from, only to be killed off when they've outlived their usefulness.

 

I didnt even say jews, ffs.

 

You understand that FFS is For Fucks Sake?  That this is great example of JoeB using aggressive language to insult Jews.  Being paranoid and racist is his opinion and I don't think after 100's of posts it has a place here.

 

10 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

You don't appear to be doing yourself any favors here either. Rather than attacking another member and stirring the pot, how about you give the mod team some time to review your grievances. If those things were truly said, why are there no reports for posts regarding the murder of children and the feds?

 

I did report it.  I can't find it right now, perhaps like the recent ADL needs to be bashed it's been erased.  If I can check the mod records I'm pretty sure I can find it. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by thelerner

[Marblehead]

Never, ever personal attacks.

 

If needed, attack the message, not the messenger.

 

Funny Kar3n.  I have never expected anyone to agree with me.  In fact, I have more fun when others disagree with me.

 

[Kar3n]

7 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Sorry, just wondering how racist this board should be allowed to be.

 

You understand that FFS is For Fucks Sake?  That this is great example of JoeB using aggressive language to insult Jews.  Being paranoid and racist is his opinion and I don't think after 100's of posts it has a place here.

For fuck's sake is used to emote disbelief in a strong tone, kind of like,  "Come on..." "You have got to be kidding me" or "For Pete's sake" or "For God's sake". It is my belief that ffs is not directed at Jews, but rather at the reaction to his post, what was read into it and the hiding of it. I think you are reaching and looking to stir trouble in this instance by employing ffs to be aggressive against the Jewish community and strongly advise against your continued personal attacks against Joeblast or any other member whom you may disagree with.

 

7 minutes ago, thelerner said:

I did report it.  I can't find it right now, perhaps like the recent ADL needs to be bashed it's been erased.  If I can check the mod records I'm pretty sure I can find it. 

I am looking for it. I will not comment further until I read the report and the discussion.

[joeblast]

what's glaringly obvious is that despite whatever crafting of verbiage is used, some people are going to read their biases right into it, and the writer's intent be damned - we've got an opportunity to silence one with whom we disagree, ergo it should be pursued to the hilt!!!

 

I dont have the patience for silly children's games, the propagandized can enjoy their thought controlled spaces - if the matrix tells them they wipe their asses with silk, the red meat is nice and juicy, who are they to disagree?

 

I'm reminded of being in 4th grade, when the principal yelled at the entire school for cheering for Drew, because it sounded like Boo, and we cant say that.  No, she dont care that's not what we're saying, they cant tell.  And I mean paying attention to the situation on the ground, the cheers for Drew only came when Drew made a good play   But who are we to question authority, we'll be told what our words mean and that's that.

 

Destroy the language, so that men may not exchange ideas.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by joeblast

[ralis]

3 minutes ago, joeblast said:

what's glaringly obvious is that despite whatever crafting of verbiage is used, some people are going to read their biases right into it, and the writer's intent be damned - we've got an opportunity to silence one with whom we disagree, ergo it should be pursued to the hilt!!!

 

I dont have the patience for silly children's games, the propagandized can enjoy their thought controlled spaces - if the matrix tells them they wipe their asses with silk, the red meat is nice and juicy, who are they to disagree?

 

You said that the ADL (Anti Defamation League) should be beaten with a rubber hose until compliance. That is advocating violence against a Jewish group. 

[joeblast]

44 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

You said that the ADL (Anti Defamation League) should be beaten with a rubber hose until compliance. That is advocating violence against a Jewish group. 

So now jews have a lock on the word Defamation, too, and only Jews can now be defamed?

 

Caricature, as usual, Ralis.  Its exceptional how well some people can be programmed.

 

 

Since that is about 98.9% likely to have zoomed over your head,

 

You're ok with a certain quasi ethnicity getting together and telling the world that their interpretation of terms overrides the commonly accepted historical usage of the term, because they're special or something?

 

This is the very destruction of language I've spoken about so many times.

 

Its a laughable fallacy that you purport to support free speech.  People like you are like the people who travel 55 in the fast lane on the highway who never realize they are the cause of poor traffic flow.  (traffic jams, since I wind up having to spell every little last thing out to the most minute detail, lest it be considered to be one of the myriad offenses to humanity that Progressivism has conjured into existence.  Even when I do spell it out, its really amusing how oft it's still misunderstood.)

 

Spoiler

 

difference between me and ralis is

 

vs

 

 

I just dont bother leaving my intent hidden

 

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by joeblast
and a second edit to make it even more obvious just in case some dont get obvious-ness

[windwalker]

12 hours ago, Aetherous said:

To be challenged by others is an opportunity for cultivation...it's not an opportunity to silence others. Silencing free speech and controlling other people is not the path of peace. The Talk Trump thread is a great opportunity for most of us to grow. The only thing is that it's up to us as individuals, if we're going to cultivate and behave proactively, or let our egos and emotions rule who we are. Just because some members make the wrong choice, or falter a little bit on the path, doesn't make it any less of an opportunity for growth.

 

 

But that's what some want, to silence things they don't agree with. I do find it interesting that when things start to come out in the trump thread proven true, the most ardent detractors suddenly grow silent.  I also find it interesting that so many who claim to follow an inner way are somehow attached to outer things allowing them to be affected.  Wrong choices, might be right choices .  

 

For those cultivating an inner way, 

 

"The highest goodness resembles water 
Water greatly benefits myriad things without contention 
It stays in places that people dislike 
Therefore it is similar to the Tao"

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, ralis said:

advocating violence

 

 

 

The U.S. Supreme Court ....holding that government cannot constitutionally punish abstract advocacy of force or law violation. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

 

in other news:

 

U.S.

First Undocumented Immigrant Appointed to State Post in California

https://www.yahoo.com/news/first-undocumented-immigrant-appointed-state-122408144.html

Edited March 15, 2018 by Taoist Texts

[thelerner]

Joe, you support free speech until you can break out 'the attack them with rubber pipes' comment.  Sickening.

In any case the ADL has decades of experience taking on the Klan, neoNazi's, White supremists and conspiracy militia's murderous types.  I figure they don't have to worry too much  about people like Joeblast coming at them with a rubber pipe.