The Human Cost of Talking Trump

[joeblast]

5 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Ok, thanks.

its like watching the rovers "on the moon" and the "lunar dust" that's kicked up and noting ffs, that's non 1/6th gravity physics I am watching.  or the vertical jump...that's not moon physics I am watching.  now...did I say we never went to the moon? 

 

this thread is nothing but a headache, it gets annoying having 5 year olds tag you and say you've got cooties, one shouldnt really need to refute cooties.

Edited March 15, 2018 by joeblast

[Taoist Texts]

38 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

you just called him an Anarchist.

 

You misheard slightly. Actually he called him an Antichrist

[joeblast]

11 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

You misheard slightly. Actually he called him an Antichrist

well, they're already accusing me of attacking the trunk of that tree, it would be silly to move on to the branches, which is almost as much of a recipe for getting called crazy as talking about the root

[doc benway]

21 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

What Happened?

 

Two long-term Bums, Brian and Taomeow, appear to have left TDB after their character was besmirched by another Bum in the Trump Talk thread. (Or perhaps they are merely on temporary leave?  Time will tell.)  In one case the besmirching happened at the hands of someone opposed to Trump; in the other, at the hands of a Trump supporter.  

 

I rarely look at that thread. I learned early on that it is not a discussion that is of any value to me. The last time I did look at it, I reported the comments of a moderator who I felt had used veiled insults to attack a member against whom I suspect they hold some degree of longstanding animosity. I think that thread brings out the worst in us, as political debates tend to do.

 

21 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Who do we want to be?

 

 

I think that we want to be (eg think we are) a group of "enlightened" people, interested in wide variety of spiritual endeavors, who have come to a point where they are able to see through the veneer of mass ignorance and confusion such that we are able to discuss any topic without restriction. The truth is the Talk Trump thread shows us just how (self)obsessed we are with the political and economic narrative and how petty, defensive, and aggressive we are when our ideas of truth collide. We are no better or more "enlightened" than any other group of people chatting anonymously online, we just feel that way because we discuss "enlightened" topics like Daoism and Buddhism. I've seen far more civil, compassionate, and supportive activity in forums where the primary topic of discussion is knives, guns, swords, guitars, music, and so forth. To a large degree that is because those forums generally restrict political and religious discussion. For all of the dismissive and condescending attitudes I see here towards Christianity, I have seen far more respectful and mutually supportive discussion on boards that were composed predominately of Christians - not only towards each other but towards all members of the community.

 

 

21 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I believe we`ve come to a critical juncture as a community, a point where we need to make some hard decisions about the future of the board.   It seems to me there`s a human cost to having an off-grid mosh pit of sorts where people are given free rein to elbow each other to the ground with minimal staff intervention.  There are so many places, both on-line and in real life, where we can talk politics, and so few places free of such talk.  So many places where people can malign each other freely, and so few places where peace and harmony prevails. I think it`s time we return to doing what we do best: discussing spirituality.

 

I think this issue has been present since the beginning of this board. Good and bad people have come and gone. The tenor of the board has not changed all that much in my time here, although the whole Trump issue has been very divisive as it has been, and was intended to be, for the country at large. There is undoubtedly a human cost to permitting political and religious debate online. Anonymity and distance allow us to be far more aggressive and offensive than most of us would ever consider face to face. The flip side is that every one of us knows what is likely to result from participating in a thread like Talk Trump or one of the many threads on gender issues, sexuality, politics, MoPai, etc... While these threads are great opportunities to practice and cultivate spiritual and interpersonal maturity, for most of us they simply cause pain and frustration and show us at our ugliest. Caveat emptor.

 

I believe the hope and intention is that this is a place where we can handle any discussion and whatever consequences arise, that is the workings of the Dao - so be it. While that is true, the result is that wonderful contributors tend to get fed up with the bullying and aggression of the bottom feeders and depart - I could easily name several without having to think much about it. It's a very fine line to walk - allow freedom and alienate valuable contributing members vs restrict discussion topics and sterilize or suppress opportunities to grow through such interaction.

 

I for one am disgusted by much of the dialogue in Talk Trump and many other threads of similar tone. Just like in real life, sharing our political positions has posed real challenges in terms of maintaining friendships and collegiality with folks of opposing views. I think I would be much more engaged in a community that made more of an attempt to foster mutual collaboration and support among members and restricted or discouraged political debate. We do a pretty good job of discussing religion here, but clearly not politics. I suspect that is because we are more religiously than politically homogenous. On the other hand, I do respect Sean for creating this online experiment of unrestricted discussion and for those who prefer this atmosphere, it is a rare and unique online home.

 

I think this community wants to maintain a high degree of freedom when it comes to discussion and selection of topics. While that is admirable there will be inevitable consequences and that means attrition of members who lose patience with each other as discussions get heated. At the end of the day, this forum is not all that important. It is simply a place where people can chat anonymously. We would be well served to take ourselves, our opinions, our truths, and the topics of discussion less seriously and to try and approach the community with a bit more playfulness and civility. 

 

This site is unique in that it brings people together from all over the world who may find it difficult to find others locally with similar interests in Eastern religion, language, philosophy, and practice. If that is the goal of the community, I think we would find it far more effective if we were to restrict political discussion. I believe we would see less animosity and fewer departures of valuable contributors. This site is also unique in allowing such a degree of freedom of religious and political discussion. If that freedom is the goal then we are very effective but that freedom undoubtedly has a negative impact on the former goals.

 

 

21 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Please note: I don`t mean to comment negatively on the way the board is being moderated and administrated.  Staff has a hard job, and I`m not eager to join their ranks.   

 

I must say that I have seen a few very disappointing examples of moderation here of late although overall I feel the moderators do an excellent job that is thankless and voluntary. The moderators here are only human and the job is quite challenging, I know that from personal experience. Nevertheless, when they exhibit bias, intolerance, and petty retaliation, they should be called out and corrected or invited to leave the role. 

[cheya]

Thank you for that analysis, Steve... Could not agree with you more...

[MooNiNite]

This is a thread about Talk Trump. Which means Talk Trump has its own active sub-thread. That's pretty impressive. 

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, joeblast said:

the global criminal networks are not all jews, I've never asserted that.  in fact I've asserted quite a few times the varied and inhomogeneous nature of the global criminal networks.  in fact I have asserted that not all jews are party or privy to the alleged jewishness of the global criminal networks.

 

"the global criminal networks are not all jews"

"not all jews are party or privy to the alleged jewishness of the global criminal networks"

 

As a Jew, I find these comments hurtful and offensive, intended or not.

That is how it makes me feel, whether you consider that feeling valid or not.

Being a part of a community means that we affect each other and we are not always aware of how are words are taken.

To my ear, the emphasis in your comments is on the word 'all.'

Sounds a lot like "not all blacks are criminals" or "not all women are weak" or "not all Poles are stupid"

The implication here is that many or most are, just not all.

 

I offer this comment in the most constructive way possible and I acknowledge you may find it confrontational.

You may say that it's in my head or it's my paranoia and, to a degree, that is correct.

Each of us sees the world through our past experience and conditioning. 

For minorities whose people have been subjected to efforts at mass extermination or subjugation, the paranoia and sensitivity is very real and justified. Jews cannot look at a palm raised in salute and not think of death camps, Hutus cannot look at a machete and not think of recent genocide, African Americans cannot look at heavy steel chains and not think of slavery. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule but I hope you see my point.

 

My hope is that sharing my perspective will help you to see that the "progressive" value of considering the feelings of others when we communicate has some validity and value. I don't mean to add fuel to the fire but I also don't feel that a comment like yours should be let slide, particularly not in the context of a spiritually oriented discussion board. It's your prerogative to brush off my expression of feelings or take a moment and consider that there may be some truth there worthy of consideration.

 

We never see ourselves more clearly and more accurately than when we can see ourselves through the eyes of others, especially those that we offend. 

 

 

 

 

 

[dawei]

4 hours ago, ralis said:

 

You said that the ADL (Anti Defamation League) should be beaten with a rubber hose until compliance. That is advocating violence against a Jewish group. 

 

Speaking just from my point of view as a reader...  I don't think JB would care if the ADL was run by Eskimos... he'd still call for a snowball fight with them...

 

IMO, JB is characteristically similar to Trump in talking points... its a shock value approach in a sense.    But as staff, we do evaluate the message against the rules and we listen to both sides of the issue if possible. 

 

I personally don't see the thread (or sub-forum) as hurting the forum as much as it simply shows our human nature; our feelings get hurt and/or we feel disrespected, etc.  IMO, it is as was stated:  To be challenged by others is an opportunity for cultivation.

 

I tell most staff/mod rotations that being a mod is an opportunity for cultivation... one's sensibilities are challenged and thus our own prejudices can creep to the surface that have laid dormant or suppressed in some ways.   Chatting in a very open environment of varied voices brings this out too.   

 

There is so much talk about how Trump is divisive... it takes folks taking a side... burning a campus, refusing speakers they don't agree with, holding a chopped off head of a president, doing a murderous play on the president...  Trump caused that... really ?

 

This stuff is inside folks and has laid dormant and now rears its ugly head to reveal a part of their nature they think is justified in its anger and violent demonstrations...  This is people finally and truly acting in spontaneity... but based in anger... in a way they claim is to resist, yet they would appear crazy in what they are doing.   Trump caused that ?

 

Likely the greatest problem humans have is owning up to their own role, their own reaction, their own psychosis (should it go that far)...  To be challenged by others is an opportunity for cultivation.

 

I'm unfazed by Trump, the reactions, the thread, the division...  it is simply the 10,000 arising their own way... Weeds grow among roses.   

 

When the world knows beauty as beauty, ugliness arises (Tr.  D. Lin). 

 

I never took this board as a place to limit ones interest... but rather folks could pick and choose what to participate in, or start as a topic.    To be challenged by others is an opportunity for cultivation.

 

Now, given all that, the point of the thread is valid and useful... but is it going to result in anything useful?   

 

Likely it helps to blow off the steam.. isn't that what this sub-forum area is about?

 

To be challenged by others is an opportunity for cultivation.

 

That's just my take, and quoting something I believe is of value for a spiritually minded and energy practice forum  

 

[doc benway]

24 minutes ago, dawei said:

There is so much talk about how Trump is divisive... it takes folks taking a side... burning a campus, refusing speakers they don't agree with, holding a chopped off head of a president, doing a murderous play on the president...  Trump caused that... really ?

 

This stuff is inside folks and has laid dormant and now rears its ugly head to reveal a part of their nature they think is justified in its anger and violent demonstrations...  This is people finally and truly acting in spontaneity... but based in anger... in a way they claim is to resist, yet they would appear crazy in what they are doing.   Trump caused that ?

 

 

Then the fact that it's rearing its ugly head now has nothing to do with Trump?

 

A presidential candidate (now a president) bragging about grabbing women by the pussy, calling Mexicans rapists and murders, signing countless executive orders to destroy the environment, supporting white supremacists, encouraging attendees at a rally to physically assault dissenters... all that is irrelevant to these expressions of anger?

 

For sure we are seeing human nature, for sure we are seeing dormant fears and anger expressed, and for sure Trump, Bannon, and company took this opportunity to spread messages calculated to foment division and anger. The ruling class have always used division to control the populace. That is precisely what we are seeing in this country now. If economically challenged Blacks, Whites, Mexicans, Asians, etc... banded together to address the economic and political abuse and disenfranchisement that is growing rapidly in this country, the gentry would be shit out of luck.

[dawei]

1 minute ago, steve said:

 

Then the fact that it's rearing its ugly head now has nothing to do with Trump?

 

A presidential candidate (now a president) bragging about grabbing women by the pussy, calling Mexicans rapists and murders, signing countless executive orders to destroy the environment, supporting white supremacists, encouraging attendees at a rally to physically assault dissenters... all that is irrelevant to these expressions of anger?

 

For sure we are seeing human nature, for sure we are seeing dormant fears and anger expressed, and for sure Trump, Bannon, and company took this opportunity to spread messages calculated to foment division and anger. The ruling class have always used division to control the populace. That is precisely what we are seeing in this country now. If economically challenged Blacks, Whites, Mexicans, Asians, etc... banded together to address the economic and political abuse and disenfranchisement that is growing rapidly in this country, the gentry would be shit out of luck.

 

It should be a fun ride (despite some rides scare us)... observed from a distance because it will be distance like all history flows...  you can't step in the same water twice...  someone said that a long time ago...

 

they are related... like a flowing stream... but to try and claim one part of the stream is the result or foul is like saying the clouds are bad because they cause rain...  What does the 10,000 things arising mean ?

 

Folks need to cycle their stuff...   Just look further than you can throw, would be one idea I realized some time ago. 

 

Trump is a kind of reset...  there are many such occurrence in our storied history of existence... ice ages are much more extreme...  Trump is just a wake-up call to existence... he is one of the 10,000 arising... 

[ralis]

8 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Then the fact that it's rearing its ugly head now has nothing to do with Trump?

 

A presidential candidate (now a president) bragging about grabbing women by the pussy, calling Mexicans rapists and murders, signing countless executive orders to destroy the environment, supporting white supremacists, encouraging attendees at a rally to physically assault dissenters... all that is irrelevant to these expressions of anger?

 

For sure we are seeing human nature, for sure we are seeing dormant fears and anger expressed, and for sure Trump, Bannon, and company took this opportunity to spread messages calculated to foment division and anger. The ruling class have always used division to control the populace. That is precisely what we are seeing in this country now. If economically challenged Blacks, Whites, Mexicans, Asians, etc... banded together to address the economic and political abuse and disenfranchisement that is growing rapidly in this country, the gentry would be shit out of luck.

 

‘Well said! I have stated historical references regarding the horror in Germany in the 1930’s, 1940’s, which is a reminder as to what human nature is capable of. How did it begin? Words and blame. 

 

You are are absolutely correct regarding the hate, division that Trump has fomented. Propaganda is a powerful tool and I see the Goebbels influence in Trump’s rhetoric. I have read most of Goebbels speeches. 

 

Dr. Timothy Snyder is worth watching and reading on this. 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=dr+timothy+snyder&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

[ralis]

28 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

It should be a fun ride (despite some rides scare us)... observed from a distance because it will be distance like all history flows...  you can't step in the same water twice...  someone said that a long time ago...

 

they are related... like a flowing stream... but to try and claim one part of the stream is the result or foul is like saying the clouds are bad because they cause rain...  What does the 10,000 things arising mean ?

 

Folks need to cycle their stuff...   Just look further than you can throw, would be one idea I realized some time ago. 

 

Trump is a kind of reset...  there are many such occurrence in our storied history of existence... ice ages are much more extreme...  Trump is just a wake-up call to existence... he is one of the 10,000 arising... 

 

Fun ride? Why not read Goebbels speeches, Mein Kampf and critically compare and contrast with Trump’s rhetoric. 

 

Hiding behind the the so called 10,000 things and not paying attention to current issues is a weak position. Flowing stream is hardly what I would characterize this. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by ralis

[liminal_luke]

What an amazing twist -- a thread intended to suggest that the Trump Talk thread be discontinued has instead become yet another Trump Talk thread.  I`m like a guy on the beach with my hands out in front of me thinking I`m going to hold back the tidal wave.

[七星門]

The spirit of Mob is many headed but single minded. 

[doc benway]

17 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

What an amazing twist -- a thread intended to suggest that the Trump Talk thread be discontinued has instead become yet another Trump Talk thread.  I`m like a guy on the beach with my hands out in front of me thinking I`m going to hold back the tidal wave.

 

One word comes to mind - viral.

Trump and similar propagandists infect everything they touch.

Malice breeds malice, same as it ever was.

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, steve said:

 

One word comes to mind - viral.

Trump and similar propagandists infect everything they touch.

Malice breeds malice, same as it ever was.

 

Ouch... To me it is statements like this which keep the infections alive. In that simple statement, you have stirred the pot again...

[Jeff]

28 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

What an amazing twist -- a thread intended to suggest that the Trump Talk thread be discontinued has instead become yet another Trump Talk thread.  I`m like a guy on the beach with my hands out in front of me thinking I`m going to hold back the tidal wave.

 

Well said.  

[Aetherous]

9 minutes ago, steve said:

Malice breeds malice, same as it ever was.

But what are we doing about it? Perpetuating malice? Or breaking the cycle?

[ralis]

6 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

 

Interesting perspective.

 

He wasn’t running for president when the pussy comments were made even still that is bad behavior on par with Obama showing his hardon while on Air Force One or maybe a little less since he wasn’t in office at the time.

 

He didn’t call all Mexicans murders and rapists. That is a generalization used by the left to stir up division. He was referring to the illegals that come in and commit crimes.

 

Destroying the environment is pretty silly to say at that his point.

 

 I have never seen him support white supremacist. Again liberal talking points.

 

He did joke about punching a protestor at his rally. At the same time we know the left hired people to encourage such acts of violence at his rallies as well as supporting antefa, a fascist group and the violent acts of Occupy Wall Streat movement. Not good I mention the support of riots across the nation.

 

None of that was Trump.

 

The only people preaching hate and intolerance is the liberal press and the identity politics of the left.

 

 

 

His rhetoric is well documented on YouTube and other online media. I have watched his hateful rhetoric and the joke as you stated was not a joke. 

 

You just couldn’t resist bringing Obama into this. 

 

Your constant bashing of the liberal press is straight out of Goebbels play book. I know my history quite well and you however continue to repeat the same rhetoric from the past. Why not read some history. 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/the-ominous-nazi-era-precedent-to-trump-s-fake-news-attacks-1.5438960

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lying_press

 

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by ralis

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

But what are we doing about it? Perpetuating malice? Or breaking the cycle?

 

Lets hope we can break the cycle...

 

How about right now all members stop posting in this thread and the Trump thread as a show of unity and breaking the cycle...

 

Everyone just drop their attachments to it...

[dawei]

3 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Lets hope we can break the cycle...

 

How about right now all members stop posting in this thread and the Trump thread as a show of unity and breaking the cycle...

 

Everyone just drop their attachments to it...

 

Does daily re-reading it count as being in the cycle or outside of it ?  

[ralis]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Lets hope we can break the cycle...

 

How about right now all members stop posting in this thread and the Trump thread as a show of unity and breaking the cycle...

 

Everyone just drop their attachments to it...

 

I put the extremists on ignore and it all continued. 

[ralis]

Is Joe B going to slide on this one? Or, will the mods continue to enable?

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Does daily re-reading it count as being in the cycle or outside of it ?  

 

I see even our admin could not do it...

 

[s1va]

53 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

What an amazing twist -- a thread intended to suggest that the Trump Talk thread be discontinued has instead become yet another Trump Talk thread.  I`m like a guy on the beach with my hands out in front of me thinking I`m going to hold back the tidal wave.

 

I was wondering the same thing! The first comment Steve made about the pitfalls of political topics was so sensible.  From there, how did it turn so rapidly into yet another Trump Talk is amazing.