Stewart Posted March 19, 2018 My main interests are twofold. First I would like to know about a more pure Tao. Yes, oxymoron aside, a system, methodology, or approach to the Tao that does not contain concepts of Buddhism, Hinduism or any other Ism. For me the Buddhist concepts of reincarnation, Karma, the Dharma are irrelevant to what I seek. I don't seek to avoid suffering, as I suffer very little or possibly not at all, so the eight-fold path holds little value for me. I suppose that what I would like to know more about is the Tao itself. A tall order indeed, given the unknowable nature of the Tao, but that is my direction. My concept of the Tao is like in the Katha Upanishad, the discussion of the unmanifested self. It seems obvious to me that when the 10,000 manifestations came about that dualism was born and that dualism has been echoing down thru (linear) time. And it would be helpful to return to this (pure) Tao to shake off the remnants of our "creation". To do this I don't want to go down the isles of the spiritual supermarket throwing what ever catches my eye into the cart. This cherry picking of what appeals from various systems and adding them to our current pursuit is just clouding the water. Second I would like know more about (Tao) Sages. Are there any Sages today and if so how does one access them? What constitutes a Sage and how does one know the qualifications of a Sage. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 19, 2018 Hi Stewart, It's always nice to see someone interested in the philosophy of Daoism without all the attachments (sorry) of man's mind. I consider myself a Philosophical Daoist and I am an Atheist so you won't be seeing me mixing the philosophy with any religions. Yes, your quest is a great one. But I won't say that it is a mission impossible. First, I will suggest that "Pure Tao" is undifferentiated. Yes, absolutely undifferentiated. That means that we cannot define Pure Tao. All we can talk about are Tao's manifestations AND our feelings of being one with all these manifestations. Note that I said "feelings". This is important because these "feelings" are not an aspect of the manifest but rather that of the Spirit of Tao. An expression often used is that of the "uncarved block" (of wood). We cannot be defined other than that of being an uncarved block of wood still with the potential of all possibilities. A few years ago I was in a conversation with someone no longer active on this forum and I was asked if there still is any "Pure Tao" in the universe. My response was "Yes". But this requires a return to a state prior to any manifestations of the energy of Tao (energy of the universe) that has not yet manifested into "things". Dualism, in my opinion, is a concept of the mind of man, not of the manifestations of Tao. "Things" of Tao simply are what they are. But the mind of man points to these "things' and states that a particular "thing" is "this" and not "that". An while this is a valid process of our mind it doesn't change the reality of any particular "thing". That's just a start to give you something to think about. I don't mind you questioning anything I have said above. There is so much more to this "Pure Tao" concept than the little I have said. As to Sages: I consider any person of wisdom the be "sagely". They all don't appear with the label "Taoist". Sure, we can say Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu were Sages. They are long past. I'm sure there are many others. I have heard wisdom from many different sources. I suppose that we should consider anyone who speaks to the Spirit a Sage. By Spirit I mean one who speaks a truth which speaks to "our" spirit and their words cannot be denied. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daemon Posted March 19, 2018 (edited) ☮️ Edited October 5, 2018 by Daemon 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 19, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Daemon said: PM me if you want to join a practice group that meets online Sundays at 18:00 UTC, which will facilitate the answering of the first part of your question and we can discuss whether that would work for us as well. ☮️ It would be nice if such discussions happened here in open forum. I am sure there are many who would benefit from just reading the discussions. Edited March 19, 2018 by Marblehead 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daemon Posted March 19, 2018 (edited) ☮️ Edited October 5, 2018 by Daemon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 19, 2018 5 minutes ago, Daemon said: It would be nice if that was possible. Well, Hey, if it isn't "impossible" then it could be possible. (And who is to state what is impossible until after it has been tried?) Maybe in one of your PPF? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonesboy Posted March 19, 2018 There is a chat room here at the bums that could be used for discussion and demonstrations. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted March 19, 2018 5 hours ago, Stewart said: I would like to know about a more pure Tao. Hi Stewart, The Tao resides in one's self. The real Tao is not external to you - but within you. How pure do you want your Tao to be? Can you make it that pure? - LimA 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted March 19, 2018 6 hours ago, Stewart said: I would like to know about a more pure Tao. Hi Stewart, Noob-ody is perfect. - LimA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted March 19, 2018 6 hours ago, Stewart said: Yes, oxymoron aside... Hi Stewart, Just for laughs - what is oxymoron? - LimA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted March 19, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Stewart said: Second I would like know more about (Tao) Sages. Are there any Sages today and if so how does one access them? What constitutes a Sage and how does one know the qualifications of a Sage. A. Welcome to the Dao Bums B. That's a pretty interesting group of questions. I think I'll steal it and make it into a thread, for greater discussion. see how it works. thread started in the Daoist Discussion area. Edited March 19, 2018 by thelerner 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stewart Posted March 20, 2018 21 hours ago, Limahong said: Hi Stewart, Just for laughs - what is oxymoron? - LimA a figure of speech by which a locution produces an incongruous, seemingly self-contradictory effect. People often joke about Military Intelligence being an oxymoron. In the case I used, it seems obvious that a "Tao System" is a contradiction in terms. If that didn't produce a chuckle, that's OK because it wasn't meant to be humorous. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stewart Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) On 3/19/2018 at 8:05 AM, Marblehead said: I consider myself a Philosophical Daoist and I am an Atheist so you won't be seeing me mixing the philosophy with any religions. In keeping with your transparency I admit a flirtation with Atheism but I have a cosmology stuck in my mind that says before anything was manifested, the unmanifested-self was existent. Then, probably out of curiosity, the unmanifested-self wanted to know what existence in all its various forms would be. *BOOM* That was a Big Bang type of event, but not out of infinitely dense matter packed into a singularity, rather it was a ripping apart the matter/antimatter of nothingness. Hawking talked about this, where on the edge of a black hole matter and antimatter are created in a process that looks like running the clock in reverse on a matter and antimatter collision. Thus the creation of the universe has a by-product of dualism. Light/dark, hot/cold, male/female, yes/no and so forth echo thru our reality. It was/is this non-time before the creation event is where the unmanifested-self dwelt. It is near impossible for me to not think of that unmanifested-self as God. This unmanifested-self is a pretty workable definition of the Tao. Your mileage may vary. Edited March 20, 2018 by Stewart 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 20, 2018 It is next to impossible for one to give up their religion especially if it is in their heart as well as in their head. Yes, the theory you spoke to is a common and valid theory. I'm not convinced about the "matter/anti-matter" theory yet. I do accept the theory of Dark Energy and Dark Matter though even though they are as of yet undefinable. Kinda' like Tao. I do hold to the Big Bang theory though. IN my mind it is the only one that is logical based on presently available data. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted March 21, 2018 6 hours ago, Stewart said: Oxymoron - a figure of speech by which a locution produces an incongruous, seemingly self-contradictory effect. Hi Stewart, You have come across as engagingly learned. Please remain this way. Oxymoron - for laughs: - LimA 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Never Mind Posted April 4, 2018 On 3/20/2018 at 10:13 AM, Stewart said: Then, probably out of curiosity, the unmanifested-self wanted to know what existence in all its various forms would be. *BOOM* Unmanifested-self is an oxymoron if there ever was one‼ 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted April 4, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Never Mind said: Unmanifested-self is an oxymoron if there ever was one‼ Hi Never Mind, An oxymoron is a rhetorical device that uses an ostensible self-contradiction to illustrate a rhetorical point or to reveal a paradox. - Wikipedia When playing with rhetorics, there is a common element in an oxymoron and unmanisfested-self - 'SELF'. I do not know what I am getting mySELF into but let us continue. So what is an unmanisfested self? So far so good - an unmanisfested self is absolutely perfect. But why are you associating it with an oxymoron? Is it because of these - So Never Mind - what is your decision? I ask because you raised this - "Unmanifested-self is an oxymoron"; never mind about me - I am just a oxymoron. Moron was coined in 1910 by psychologist Henry H. Goddard ... which meant "dull" and used to describe a person with a mental age in adulthood of between 8 and 12. - Wikipedia - LimA Edited April 4, 2018 by Limahong Correct errors. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted April 4, 2018 "Unmanifest Self" is perfection as it has not yet been manifest. We can't even define the manifest Self. How could we expect to be able to define any thing that is not yet manifest? However, those who hold to the concept of the existence of a soul prior to a physical birth might claim that they understand. Is there a "Pure Tao"? I have, in a previous discussion, suggested that there is. It is the energy of the universe not yet manifest or altered by the manifest. It isn't any thing yet it has the potential to become any thing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted April 4, 2018 43 minutes ago, Marblehead said: Is there a "Pure Tao"? I have, in a previous discussion, suggested that there is. It is the energy of the universe not yet manifest or altered by the manifest. Hi Dada-da, - LimA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted April 4, 2018 You got some pretty good quotes from the TTC in that one. My compliments. And yes, this is what I speak to when I speak of Harmony as opposed to Balance. And yes, I know that this pure energy (Tao) can be found within as well. We just need to allow it to be what it is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted April 5, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Marblehead said: Harmony as opposed to Balance. Good morning Dada-da, Very interesting to put harmony and balance alongside each other. - LimA Edited April 5, 2018 by Limahong Enhance ... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted April 5, 2018 If the instruments in that song weren't in harmony with each other the song wouldn't be as beautiful as it is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted April 5, 2018 47 minutes ago, Marblehead said: If the instruments in that song weren't in harmony with each other the song wouldn't be as beautiful as it is. Hi Dada-da, The musical harmony from different instruments comes from the the blending of different notes. No one particular note may sound the same (or nice) on all instruments. - LimA 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted April 5, 2018 5 hours ago, Marblehead said: ... the song wouldn't be as beautiful as it is. Hi Dada-da, In the end, it is more than musicians, musical notes, instruments... and harmony. It is all of the above plus - love, patriotism, sacrifices... and human suffering? - LimA 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted April 5, 2018 Strange you selected "Arirang" for that example as it is my favorite Korean song although I prefer it with traditional instruments and vocals. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
