Where are the Taoist Sages?

[thelerner]

This was part of new member Stewart's intro-

 

Stewart

Posted 7 hours ago

Second I would like know more about (Tao) Sages.  Are there any Sages today and if so how does one access them? What constitutes a Sage and how does one know the qualifications of a Sage.

 

 

 

Great Question.  Who do you consider to be living Sages these days?  Names.. books..  At various times I think we all spout sagely things, but its not all that predictable and the real trick is living it, not spitting it.  Otherwise we'd worship fortune cookies. 

 

 

I'll answer Ajahn Brahms as living Sage.  A monk (that's head monk to you) who walks the walk and has great sense of humor.  I'd point people to his book Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond: A Mediator’s Handbook,  many podcasts  see http://www.diydharma.org/search/node/ajahn brahm

He can get pretty deep, but I love him at his funniest such as - http://www.diydharma.org/smart-thinking-boy-wonder-ajahn-brahm

 

 

Edited March 19, 2018 by thelerner

[Starjumper]

I see he's Buddhist, and lotsa Buddhists use lotsa words.  I was going to say that Lao Tzu sez the true sage teaches without speaking.  OOps, I said it anyway, but he's one of those silly Taoists.  That was sort of but not completely tongue in cheek because I agree that words can help motivate people to practice, and that's the only thing, or main thing, that they are good for, to motivate people to practice.  I now see that the title uses the word Taoist sage.  I received many valuable words of wisdom from a Taoist sage that really helped me see the Way and gave me the keys to the universe, when combined with my practice.  This person was not my chi kung teacher, who really did teach without speaking ... during practice.  Before and after practice we would sit around for hours sometimes talking about all kinds of stuff, like ghost stories and other stories, but not philosophy.  Maybe that was because neither we students nor the teacher gave a damn about philosophy.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Starjumper

[Stewart]

22 hours ago, thelerner said:

This was part of new member Stewart's intro-

 

Stewart

Posted 7 hours ago

Second I would like know more about (Tao) Sages.  Are there any Sages today and if so how does one access them? What constitutes a Sage and how does one know the qualifications of a Sage.

 

 

 

Great Question.  Who do you consider to be living Sages these days?  Names.. books..  At various times I think we all spout sagely things, but its not all that predictable and the real trick is living it, not spitting it.  Otherwise we'd worship fortune cookies. 

 

 

I'll answer Ajahn Brahms as living Sage.  A monk (that's head monk to you) who walks the walk and has great sense of humor.  I'd point people to his book Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond: A Mediator’s Handbook,  many podcasts  see http://www.diydharma.org/search/node/ajahn brahm

He can get pretty deep, but I love him at his funniest such as - http://www.diydharma.org/smart-thinking-boy-wonder-ajahn-brahm

 

 

And yet he seems to be a Buddhist.  I am looking for Tao Sages, if such a thing exists.  I have no interest in reincarnation, the Dharma, Karma, being a Bodhisattva, or sayings from the base of the Bodhi tree.  I am looking for a more purely Taoist tradition. 

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, Stewart said:

And yet he seems to be a Buddhist.  I am looking for Tao Sages, if such a thing exists.  I have no interest in reincarnation, the Dharma, Karma, being a Bodhisattva, or sayings from the base of the Bodhi tree.  I am looking for a more purely Taoist tradition. 

 

I think a couple of books written by Liu I Ming and translated by Thomas Cleary are as close as you are going to get.  It is purely Taoist and not stained by any outside influence.  I had one of his books and it was really good, the thing is that left almost all my books in the states and so can't recall which one it was.

 

I'm pretty sure that it was "The Inner Teachings of Taoism", but it may have been "Awakening to the Tao".  I think either one by those two guys should be excellent.

 

I got plenty of writings from an extremely old Taoist sage who had some magical abilities, which I call "Letters from an immortal" which I mentioned in my first post here.  The funny thing is that he used the screen name of Liu I ming, which at first I assumed was a fake name, but the original Liu I Ming shows no date of death, and so it could have been him.

 

I like to share sagely works in person, I won't do it on a forum like this because there are so many lurkers, freaks, fairies, and scammers who will steal the information in order to make themselves appear wise or to make money; and since I really really don't like that kind of person I don't want to take that chance and do them any kind of favor.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Starjumper
spelling

[Geof Nanto]

4 hours ago, Stewart said:

And yet he seems to be a Buddhist.  I am looking for Tao Sages, if such a thing exists.  I have no interest in reincarnation, the Dharma, Karma, being a Bodhisattva, or sayings from the base of the Bodhi tree.  I am looking for a more purely Taoist tradition. 

 

I like to hear of anyone’s interest in Daoism. But why the search for a Daoist sage? What do you expect to find? Without knowing anything of your background, what I would suggest is that you start with some form of qigong practice under a local teacher within a group you feel an affinity for. The rest will follow in its own time ‘self-so’.  You don’t need to find a sage.  After all, if you were starting out to learn music, would you search for a Beethoven or attend a local music teacher? 

 

4 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

I think a couple of books written by Liu I Ming and translated by Thomas Cleary are as close as you are going to get.  It is purely Taoist and not stained by any outside influence.  I had one of his books and it was really good, the thing is that left almost all my books in the states and so can't recall which one it was.

 

I'm pretty sure that it was "The Inner Teachings of Taoism", but it may have been "Awakening to the Tao".  I think either one by those two guys should be excellent.

 

 

Yeah, I particularly like these translations of Lui I Ming's works by Thomas Cleary. His Taost I Ching is a gem that's given me much valuable guidance over the years. Of contemporary teachers, one whose written works have impressed me is Damo Mitchell. His White Moon on the Mountain Peak is excellent. If I was younger and starting out, I would go to him and his group for teachings.  

Edited March 20, 2018 by Yueya

[Starjumper]

37 minutes ago, Yueya said:

You don’t need to find a sage.  After all, if you were starting out to learn music, would you search for a Beethoven or attend a local music teacher? 

 

Excellent!

[Gerard]

Nature is the greatest Daoist sage:

 

Teach Me to Be WILD explores the work of Wildlife Associates, a sanctuary in Northern California, where injured, non-releasable wild animals become Wild Teachers and are helping heal generations of hurt children. The traumatic histories of the creatures, who range from an Andean condor to a two-toed sloth, often parallel those of the at-risk youth who visit. Unexpected connections are forged that ripple into stories of transformation. Founded by Steve Karlin, a former park ranger whose greatest mentors were a 330-pound American black bear and a pair of robins, the sanctuary's work recalls us to our true place in Nature’s web. With intimate access to the animals, their caregivers, workshop facilitators and their spirited students, this film captures the magic that transpires where wounded children and their Wild Teachers meet. The film will be available on KarmaTube in its entirety until March 31st.

 

http://www.karmatube.org/videos.php?id=8051

 

Enjoy!

[Lost in Translation]

I .... hmm ....

 

I have so many words lurking beneath the surface, but nothing really worth saying at this time, in this context. 

 

In my opinion the I-Ching is a really good place to start.

 

 

[ChiForce]

That question itself is an oxymoron....Taoist sages and immortals are everywhere and nowhere at the same time....

[Lost in Translation]

8 minutes ago, ChiForce said:

That question itself is an oxymoron....Taoist sages and immortals are everywhere and nowhere at the same time....

 

Well said!

 

One thing I notice is that people (myself included) spend a lot of time looking for answers outside of ourselves. It's as if we are still children and we want our parents to tell us what to do. That's a comfortable place to be. It feels safe. But that is not a good place to be if you want to grow, to learn, and to mature. For that you need to put yourself 'out there', to take risks, to make mistakes. You need to get hurt, and to heal, and get hurt over again. I guess this is another way of describing karma. I would love to meet a flesh 'n blood sage, but I don't expect I will, and if I do he'll probably fly right under my radar and I won't even notice him.

 

Please forgive me if I sound confrontational. No offense is meant. It's just one of those times...

[ChiForce]

9 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Well said!

 

One thing I notice is that people (myself included) spend a lot of time looking for answers outside of ourselves. It's as if we are still children and we want our parents to tell us what to do. That's a comfortable place to be. It feels safe. But that is not a good place to be if you want to grow, to learn, and to mature. For that you need to put yourself 'out there', to take risks, to make mistakes. You need to get hurt, and to heal, and get hurt over again. I guess this is another way of describing karma. I would love to meet a flesh 'n blood sage, but I don't expect I will, and if I do he'll probably fly right under my radar and I won't even notice him.

 

Please forgive me if I sound confrontational. No offense is meant. It's just one of those times...

Could you imagine that you finally make the trip to see this living sage and he or she (it could be a she) asks you this question back, "where are the sages?"  How would you answer him or her??    He or she may just turn you away if you can't answer the question the "correct" way......in the spirit of the Tao.  If one really understands and to take the Tao concept seriously, there is really no points in seeking a living sage. 

Edited March 21, 2018 by ChiForce

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, ChiForce said:

there is really no points in seeking a living sage. 

 

Good point, partly because sagely wisdom is only that when it comes freshly formed from the mind and lips of one of them, and is aimed at you.  Once that happens it's just parroting and it's no longer wisdom ... or something

Edited March 21, 2018 by Starjumper

[Never Mind]

Stewart, what do you expect or imagine to get from a Taoist sage? 

[ChiForce]

10 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

Good point, partly because sagely wisdom is only that when it comes freshly formed from the mind and lips of one of them, and is aimed at you.  Once that happens it's just parroting and it's no longer wisdom ... or something

Well....I think this question often comes up.  Where to find mentors and gurus???  Such a simple question but it has many implications.  Some of us may have been guided by celestial masters regardless of where you are and where you are from.  How is this happened?  Karma ripened at the right time, right place, and the right condition.  Unfortunately, it does not often happen to everyone.  That's the reality.  Is easier for some of us to say that don't worry, sages and immortals would come and visit you if you follow the right path and to achieve the necessary cultivation accomplishment.  The odds are that it won't happen.  Master Nan Huai Chin once said it is like a blind cat catching a dead mouse.........  Then, again, we aren't talking about democracy or socialism..hehehehe...  Sages for everyone.  Taoist immortals for everyone..  Then, again, the path isn't always easy..is almost impossible.  

 

Oh yeah........if one can not answer why he or she needs to seek sages and Taoist immortals, why there are needs to seek them???  If the Tao is eternal and everywhere and nowhere at the same time, like the Dharmakaya, and Taoist immortals are one with the Tao, why there are needs to seek them???  They are already here....    

[doc benway]

The Daoist sages are in our heads - they are our expectations, our projections, and our interpretation of the classics.

The sages are in our hearts - they are our own untapped potential, our direct connection to the Truth and the Way, they are the opportunity presented in every challenge we face.

They are in our future to whatever degree we are able to manifest their qualities in our lives. 

 

[dwai]

On 3/20/2018 at 12:48 PM, Stewart said:

And yet he seems to be a Buddhist.  I am looking for Tao Sages, if such a thing exists.  I have no interest in reincarnation, the Dharma, Karma, being a Bodhisattva, or sayings from the base of the Bodhi tree.  I am looking for a more purely Taoist tradition. 

Wang Liping, Waysun Liao are two names that come to mind. My Master too but he's neither famous nor looking for it

[Stosh]

 

"Second,  I would like know more about (Tao) Sages.  Are there any Sages today and if so how does one access them? "

 

Call your Mom or Dad , and take em out to a nice dinner on a random convenient day.       

 

 

[七星門]

I like what ChiForce has to say. People are only sages insofar as they make themselves mirrors for the Dao, right? 

 

Maybe a trite technicality when we're asking specifically about living sages, but it occurs to me that maybe despite their multifarious manifestations there's never been & never can be more than one sage present every when & every where. 

 

Reminds me of my favorite poem by Rumi, 

 

Quote

If anyone asks you
how the perfect satisfaction
of all our sexual wanting
will look, lift your face
and say,

Like this.

When someone mentions the gracefulness
of the nightsky, climb up on the roof
and dance and say,

Like this.

If anyone wants to know what "spirit" is,
or what "God’s fragrance" means,
lean your head toward him or her.
Keep your face there close.

Like this.

When someone quotes the old poetic image
about clouds gradually uncovering the moon,
slowly loosen knot by knot the strings
of your robe.

Like this.

If anyone wonders how Jesus raised the dead,
don’t try to explain the miracle.
Kiss me on the lips.

Like this. Like this.

When someone asks what it means
to "die for love," point
here.

If someone asks how tall I am, frown
and measure with your fingers the space
between the creases on your forehead.

This tall.

The soul sometimes leaves the body, then returns.
When someone doesn’t believe that,
walk back into my house.

Like this.

When lovers moan,
they’re telling our story.

Like this.

I am a sky where spirits live.
Stare into this deepening blue,
while the breeze says a secret.

Like this.

When someone asks what there is to do,
light the candle in his hand.

Like this.

How did Joseph’s scent come to Jacob?

Huuuuu.

How did Jacob’s sight return?

Huuuu.

A little wind cleans the eyes.

Like this.

When Shams comes back from Tabriz,
he’ll put just his head around the edge
of the door to surprise us

Like this.

 

Edited March 21, 2018 by 七星門

[Rara]

On 20/03/2018 at 3:35 PM, Starjumper said:

 Maybe that was because neither we students nor the teacher gave a damn about philosophy.

 I don't give a damn about any other philoaophy other than the Taoist one

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, Rara said:

 I don't give a damn about any other philoaophy other than the Taoist one

Don't get me started on that.  Hehehe.  

[Lost in Translation]

4 hours ago, Rara said:

I don't give a damn about any other philoaophy other than the Taoist one

 

Congratulations. 

[thelerner]

I've been reading a book The Taoist Manual by Brock Silvers.  Unlike most such books it delves deeply into the Taoist religion.. what it means to be a Taoist.  The absolute (to him) importance of Initiation, the deeper tomes of taoist classics, the pantheon and how to venerate it.  <written in the sense he's like a Catholic Priest around hippies and shaking his head about there understanding of Christianity> 

 

I assume he'd say to find a Taoist sage, look up the nearest Taoist temple, one with a real lineage, go there and ask around.  You should find one.  And and as others pointed out a 'famous' Taoist sage, might be an oxymoron.  Good ones don't seek fame, though sometimes it happens.  

[Jetsun]

The vast majority of them were killed by Mao's purges, mostly what is left are fragments and partial teachings, if you are incredibly lucky you might stumble upon a genuine oral lineage but they are incredibly rare.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Yo!

If somebody knows where they are dont tell us for Heavens sake, tell THEM to git their elusive selves out and do some actual work.

We’re swamped over here and these people are acting seven kinds of precious, i mean really.

Edited March 26, 2018 by Rocky Lionmouth

[oak]

On 22/03/2018 at 1:41 PM, Marblehead said:

Don't get me started on that.  Hehehe.  

 

You Fundamentalists....