Taoist microcosmic orbit vs kundalini yoga

[Nothing]

Hi everyone.

 

I've practised a lot inner energy work the past 4 years. I've started with the microcosmic orbit where the energy is moved up at the back and moved down at the front. A few weeks ago I've started kundalini yoga in which I move the energy only up from the pelvic floor up to the head or even further through the head to the crone chakra. I do both (microcosmic orbit and kundalini yoga) sitting or lying with no asanas or such.

 

The thing is, kundalini feels somehow more easy and relaxing because it's only moving the energy up. In the microcosmic orbit it doesn't feel natural to move the energy down and I must force it, which creates tension.

 

Am I doing something wrong or any thoughts on this? 

[voidisyinyang]

4 hours ago, Nothing said:

Hi everyone.

 

I've practised a lot inner energy work the past 4 years. I've started with the microcosmic orbit where the energy is moved up at the back and moved down at the front. A few weeks ago I've started kundalini yoga in which I move the energy only up from the pelvic floor up to the head or even further through the head to the crone chakra. I do both (microcosmic orbit and kundalini yoga) sitting or lying with no asanas or such.

 

The thing is, kundalini feels somehow more easy and relaxing because it's only moving the energy up. In the microcosmic orbit it doesn't feel natural to move the energy down and I must force it, which creates tension.

 

Am I doing something wrong or any thoughts on this? 

 

There is an older meditation in India called Kriya yoga that circulates the energy, much like the microcosmic orbit. I have a free book that goes into that in more detail http://elixirfield.blogspot.com - it's just a pdf or docdroid link from the blog.

 

If you want to understand the microcosmic orbit then study the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality - but it requires comparison with other alchemy texts, since otherwise the terms contradict themselves, unless understood as having different meanings as different types of energy - like sun and moon for example.

 

So your experience is most likely just from not really understanding what the microcosmic orbit is about.

 

 It is said - that until the generative force is built up - the yin qi - then you are not easily going to feel the orbit. But there are different levels. One level is to still the mind, which helps to build up the yin qi. The 2nd level is to purify the yin qi to turn it into yuan qi, by making it with yang qi. And so on.

[Nothing]

I've read the book from mantak chia and read some text in the internet which deal with the basics of the microcosmic orbit. Maybe I do it a bit to pragmatically.

 

I can feel the qi and move it around in the energy centers - it's just that moving the energy down which doesn't work well. Do you have some advice? When I have the energy in my head and I want it to move it into the belly how this can be accomplished?

 

In taoism they also say it's important to collect the qi in the navel because it can cause heat in the head. So I'm wondering why kundalini yoga then doesn't have such advice? 

 

What is the microcosmic orbit about in your understanding? I like practising it, but sometimes it could be more refreshing after training. Like the relaxed feeling I have after qi gong with body movements. Is this also possible with just inner energy work?

[Jeff]

13 hours ago, Nothing said:

Hi everyone.

 

I've practised a lot inner energy work the past 4 years. I've started with the microcosmic orbit where the energy is moved up at the back and moved down at the front. A few weeks ago I've started kundalini yoga in which I move the energy only up from the pelvic floor up to the head or even further through the head to the crone chakra. I do both (microcosmic orbit and kundalini yoga) sitting or lying with no asanas or such.

 

The thing is, kundalini feels somehow more easy and relaxing because it's only moving the energy up. In the microcosmic orbit it doesn't feel natural to move the energy down and I must force it, which creates tension.

 

Am I doing something wrong or any thoughts on this? 

 

On moving the energy both ways, not being comfortable pulling down is very common. Most traditions that have a pulling down component are based in working with a divine (or higher) being that provide the energy basis for the flowing down (cascading from above). Additionally, this pulling down is a later stage process in  spiritual development when one has begun to differentiate between the “male” and “female” (yang-yin) energy sides. 

 

If you want to continue doing the pulling down and you have faith in some divine being from your tradition, try visualizing that being above your head with love and light radiating. Pull in that light and continue your loop flow. If you do not believe in any such being, I would suggest you drop such a practice until you have opened beyond the heart.

[Apech]

14 hours ago, Nothing said:

Hi everyone.

 

I've practised a lot inner energy work the past 4 years. I've started with the microcosmic orbit where the energy is moved up at the back and moved down at the front. A few weeks ago I've started kundalini yoga in which I move the energy only up from the pelvic floor up to the head or even further through the head to the crone chakra. I do both (microcosmic orbit and kundalini yoga) sitting or lying with no asanas or such.

 

The thing is, kundalini feels somehow more easy and relaxing because it's only moving the energy up. In the microcosmic orbit it doesn't feel natural to move the energy down and I must force it, which creates tension.

 

Am I doing something wrong or any thoughts on this? 

 

If you are forcing the energy down then yes you are doing something wrong and should stop.  Any kind of approach to the MCO which involves forcing, willing, visualizing and so on - is not the MCO.  There might be some purpose in clearing out channels and obstructions in manipulating energy but this part of laying the foundations and should not be mistaken for the MCO - which happens spontaneously once you have got to a certain stage.

 

 

[Nothing]

OK, I've practised again and I've noticed when I focus at the center in the head and then bring attention to the navel, the energy flows from self down to the navel. I just bring attention to the throat shortly, then to the heart, solar plexus and navel. Like guiding just the energy down and it flows automatically. This felt better but it's very subtle at the moment. Not so intense like moving the energy up. Is this the way to go with downward energy path?

Edited April 1, 2018 by Nothing

[voidisyinyang]

49 minutes ago, Nothing said:

OK, I've practised again and I've noticed when I focus at the center in the head and then bring attention to the navel, the energy flows from self down to the navel. I just bring attention to the throat shortly, then to the heart, solar plexus and navel. Like guiding just the energy down and it flows automatically. This felt better but it's very subtle at the moment. Not so intense like moving the energy up. Is this the way to go with downward energy path?

 

The "real" MCO that they're referring to means your body is full of yang qi as yuan qi, so that you do not even need to physically breath very much, nor sleep very much nor eat very much. You would have spiritual powers at that level. It is rare people reach it.

 

The reason the MCO is taught is because the mind on its own is powered by yin qi and so lacks the "driving force" of the yang qi that is activated by deep reverse breathing to create fire in the lower tan t'ien.

 

So the beginning of Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality states - if you can concentrate on your third eye and your spirit as heart energy is not "moved" by external images as passion - then you can also stop your thoughts and so turn your yin qi into yuan qi, via the yang qi.

 

So if you can feel your lower tan t'ien at the navel - that is just the first sign of the energy activated. It has to keep building up into "vital force" which is not the same as yin qi. It means you use the fire, the power of your spirit, the liver qi, to increase the yang qi of the water - by meditation. It has to be constant by maintaining celibacy of the mind as well as body.

 

So since most people can't do that for obvious reasons - then only the deep breathing is able to activate the yang qi which then will drive out the yin qi blockages and yin jing blockages. And so you also need to do standing active meditation because the "real" MCO means all the body 8 main meridian channels will be full of qi as well.

 

So at first the MCO is used to - if you have any activation of life force energy - to make sure the fire stays under the water - or the spirit with its yin qi under the yang qi - to maintain yuan qi as purified energy. So this is ONLY achieved by strong reverse breathing - called "quick fire."

 

Next the MCO is used to then purify the yin qi and yang qi into yuan qi - and so the Sun as the Heart Fire is the spirit but it is "earthy" as sullied by the Lung as the Sun yang qi having passion desires by seeing forms of beauty. So the Sun has the liver yin qi as the Moon which is also the right eye. The Moon is the lower tan t'ien as water but also has the Moon as the liver qi that turns food into generative fluid - unless strong reverse breathing is used to purify the liver qi food yin qi into yuan qi. And so the Moon is also the left eye as the Hun soul. And so by closing the eyes and rotating the eyes you activate the third eye as the yuan qi energy of the lower tan t'ien as the central channel but you are ALSO "copulating" the dragon and tiger - which means there is yin within the yang and yang within the yin - and so the Heart and Lower Tan T'ien are slowly turned into Heaven and Earth via the Sun and Moon energies circulating as alchemy.

 

So you can say just put the fire as spirit into the earth to turn the water into air as qi. This is the basic alchemy but then there is also the wood and metal that are the "dark moon" Earth origins - meaning the hidden qi as the source of the spirit qi, the Li as fire is then Ji-Earth meaning yin qi and the the source of the Water qi, the Kan as water is then Wu-Earth as the yang qi. When they have yang into yin and yin into yang - then the lower tan t'ien is turned into Earth as the Yuan Qi, the one vitality that is before the Ming essence of generative force and Before the Xing as the spirit. So that means you have activated the "real" MCO as the yuan qi energy.

 

Then you go into immortal breathing which means you do very little actual physical breathing and instead the yuan qi circulates in one direction while the impure yang qi circulates in the other direction. And then slowly the spirit as yin shen is turned into yang shen as the white light of the Yuan Shen turns into golden light from the lower tan t'ien light of the spirit-vitality of shen-qi. Then finally the whole body is converted into a yang shen and the physical body disappears and only Yuan Qi is left as the spirit has been turned into Nothingness. This is also called the state of no-thought as the One Vitality.

 

So when people say you should not "force" the MCO - what they mean is that if you can maintain a state of no-thought at the very beginning - this is what is also called Jnana yoga as vichara - the highest level of yoga - as Mouna Samadhi or silence as internal listening. It is both the process and the goal of meditation. And so it turns all the five elements of alchemy back into the Earth as immutable thought as yuan qi formless awareness - the thought of no thought as direct perception. And so this is what chapter 7 on "freezing the spirit" or "plunging the spirit" into the lower tan t'ien is also the same as the very start of the book. It states - if you can not understand all the alchemy interactions of the small universe then you can just practice this one method. But if you can not maintain the necessary purity of mind and body - then the small universe meditation is taught to create the lungs as the bellows so that the alchemical interactions take place.

[dwai]

It is better to follow an indirect path when it comes to the MCO. Learn some Qigong or Taijiquan and move the energy through those forms instead. Using the mind to drive the energy in the MCO is direct. Inducing it with moving of a form is indirect.

 

You take Taijiquan's Upward and downward form. When you do it, the MCO will automatically start happening. Similarly with other forms. 

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

If you are forcing the energy down then yes you are doing something wrong and should stop.  

 

 

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

On moving the energy both ways, not being comfortable pulling down is very common. 

 

27 minutes ago, dwai said:

It is better to follow an indirect path when it comes to the MCO.  

 

And can I get an Amen.  Each of the above quotes make an important point.  If you find yourself forcing, stop immeditely and do something else.  Perhaps take up the "indirect path" Dwai recommends.  To my mind, this means moving qi gung (just like Dwai said).  Let movement do the work of moving the qi for you, so you`re not consciously doing it with your mind.  You could take up Tai Ji, for instance.  Any number of forms will spontaneously (and safely!) open up your energy.  

 

If you`re bound and determined to do the MCO as a meditation, here`s what I would do...

 

(1) Accept that the upward flow is going to feel stronger for a long time to come.  This is normal.  

 

(2) Don`t force the downward flow or expend any kind of super effort.  Simply bring your consciousness to the points of the MCO on the way down and let the energy be whatever it is.  If there`s just a trickle or a wisp or nothing at all, that`s perfectly fine.  Just bring your attention and allow the qi to follow (or not) without getting caught up in whether or not you appear to be progressing.  

 

(3) Spend a long time at the end of practice focusing on the lower dan tien.

Edited April 1, 2018 by liminal_luke

[Starjumper]

The orbit is something which arises on it's own if someone does most any decent chi kung for awhile.  Doing it on purpose is a very fundamentalist approach and is both stupid and dangerous.

 

Getting beyond that, the idea of circulating the energy all over, up and down, is good for grounding and good for your health.  I don't know much about kundalini yoga but I know about energy,  so I will say it is not grounding and it is not good for your health.

 

Concerning enlightenment,  a kundalini experience can be a violent, uncomfortable, and even dangerous thing, because neither the body nor the mind is prepared for the energy.  On the other hand an enlightenment experience for a Taoist who does the proper chi kung is calm, stress free, and beautiful.  This is because the body is already prepared for energy in the head because it has already been practiced so much, and the energy naturally drains back down to a safe and grounding place.

 

Anther thing, doing the MCO the fundamentalist way pushed by Moretalk Chia will never get anyone even a bit closer to enlightenment.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Starjumper

[Nothing]

Ok and what is with that sexual energy movement thing like published in taoist and kundalini texts? Like you  can move the orgasm from the pelvic floor to the head and have multiple orgasms? Is this done by energy movements or is it just done by muscle contractions with the pc muscle?

[silent thunder]

Sit comfortably in stillness.

 

Eyes look to nose, nose looks to heart, heart looks to lower dan tien.

 

While abiding in stillness, rest awareness gently @ lower dan tien.

 

 

 

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Nothing said:

Ok and what is with that sexual energy movement thing like published in taoist and kundalini texts? Like you  can move the orgasm from the pelvic floor to the head and have multiple orgasms? Is this done by energy movements or is it just done by muscle contractions with the pc muscle?

When you uncover your true Self, it is more ecstatic than a 1000 orgasms, for sure. 

 

Dont worry about sexual energy movements.

 

The kundalini work that I’ve done doesn’t do anything with orgasms. It does have to do with breath work and maintaining bandhas (locks) with breath retention. It takes about 1.5-2 years of regular practice under the supervision of a good teacher before you can start moving the energy up the central channel. 

 

[voidisyinyang]

12 hours ago, Nothing said:

Ok and what is with that sexual energy movement thing like published in taoist and kundalini texts? Like you  can move the orgasm from the pelvic floor to the head and have multiple orgasms? Is this done by energy movements or is it just done by muscle contractions with the pc muscle?

 

It is not the PC muscle. Dr. Lin goes into detail about this - he is a Daoist sex engineer. haha. The orgasms are from the right side vagus nerve that connect to the testicles and then it runs up to the right side of the brain and then to the right side of the heart. A good source on this is Master Nan, Huai-chin, the best-selling Buddhist teacher - his book Tao and Longevity.

 

 

and

 

 

and

 

 

and

 

[thelerner]

On 4/1/2018 at 6:23 AM, Nothing said:

What is the microcosmic orbit about in your understanding? I like practising it, but sometimes it could be more refreshing after training. Like the relaxed feeling I have after qi gong with body movements. Is this also possible with just inner energy work?

I get the feeling that for most (including myself) the MCO tends to be more awareness of nerve sensation moving around, then actual Chi.  Most haven't.. ignited.. the chi movement, so they're not getting the 'real' MCO.  Not that its a total loss, but for most, its not the real thing, which I assume is more like a controlled kundalini-esque experience. 

[Sloppy Zhang]

Bruce Frantzis tends to say something along these lines-

 

Energy that goes up does not necessarily come down. Energy that goes down can more easily go up.

 

Most of the reason why people experience qigong/kindalini psychosis is because energy rises into the higher centers (mental/psychic centers) and they cannot appropriately ground this energy or integrate it properly in their system.

 

I would STRONGLY advise that you cease the above practices and work on the download flow of energy. Get into your body, get into your feet. I don't know where you live, but at the very least find a nice patch of grass and walk around barefoot for a while at the very least. When some of this stuff (particular kundalini) kicks off, you WILL mess yourself up if you aren't ready.

 

I have a strong suspicion that thelearner is correct in his appraisal: 

36 minutes ago, thelerner said:

I get the feeling that for most (including myself) the MCO tends to be more awareness of nerve sensation moving around, then actual Chi.  Most haven't.. ignited.. the chi movement, so they're not getting the 'real' MCO.  Not that its a total loss, but for most, its not the real thing, which I assume is more like a controlled kundalini-esque experience. 

 

Most of the early feelings in peoples' practices are psychosomatic. The feel a tingling somewhere because they put their mind there. That's not bad. But as the saying goes, "mind moves the chi". So you put your mind their first and eventually the energy goes there. Whether it goes there quickly or after much practice is up to a variety of factors. But when that kicks off... it will kick off.

 

Nothing- this is not a knock against you. I'm not sure what your level of practice and experience is. But again, if you are having issues with the downward current, I would highly suggest prioritizing that and come back to the kundalini stuff later. 

 

For a practice, i would suggest Bruce Frantzis' "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body". That set focuses on the downward current and getting the energy body "woken up". Once you get the downward flow down, going back up should be no problem.

[asbc_tao]

 

On 4/1/2018 at 7:23 AM, Nothing said:

I've read the book from mantak chia and read some text in the internet which deal with the basics of the microcosmic orbit. Maybe I do it a bit to pragmatically.

 

I hear you. I also started with Chia's books and probably wouldn't have taken up Taoist practice if it wasn't for them. But I've come to see their limitations. They are too pragmatic and go too fast, as if just visualizing or thinking about the energy can move it within the body. That said though, Chia does give a clear and straightforward map of the energy system and that's helped me. And like someone said, energy does follow intention, so placing the mind on the energy centers ought to be the first step. Maybe Chia is too yang in his approach? Later I found the books of Damo Mitchell. His approach is the opposite, very yin. He is much more philosophical than Chia. He emphasizes patience and persistent work and letting the energy movements happen in their own time. 

 

On 3/31/2018 at 6:59 PM, Nothing said:

The thing is, kundalini feels somehow more easy and relaxing because it's only moving the energy up. In the microcosmic orbit it doesn't feel natural to move the energy down and I must force it, which creates tension.

 

I can relate to this in my practice. I also started my energy journey with Kundalini meditation. Later the Governing channel portion of the MCO came pretty naturally to me. I'd already had experience with pulsation in the head and third eye, so the 'elevating' motion of energy from the tailbone was somewhat familiar. Some points along the front felt easily open too, like the Sea of Chi and the perineum. With time though I found that I have significant blockages along the front, especially in the base of the throat, heart and solar plexus areas. Blockages along the back have emerged too, for example at C7 and along the whole thoracic spine. Learning about the three granthis (from Hinduism) helped me understand some of what's going on here.

 

I've learned that physical movement is hugely important to open energy flow. Chi Gong movements were helpful for me, though only up to a point. It's turning out that I have deeper problems with posture that are causing my chi to stagnate. These problems are caused by muscle imbalance from long years of poor posture sitting at the computer, driving a car, etc. Basically, as the shoulders and neck slump forward the centers in the front get depressed while the back centers get over-extended. As the pelvis tilts abnormally the lower back gets depressed and the lower front centers over-extended (in my case). The ordinary Chi Gong that I've tried are in a way 'too light' and not targeted enough to address these deeper issues. Recently I came across Chia's Craniosacral Chi-Kung and that's been a huge help. I've also researched the cross syndromes (upper and lower cross syndrome - the names for these postural problems) and exercises I can do to reverse them. As I've been doing this work over the last 2 months, the energy flow has increased significantly, both up and down. 

 

I've also benefited from opening the heart center using Buddhist loving-kindness meditation. And then integrating the open heart into the MCO. Kristin Neff's self-compassion meditation (which is Buddhism-based) has helped me a lot here. I think the heart is a guiding force in the downward movement of energy along the front, just as the craniosacral pump moves energy up along the spine. An open heart free of attachment should therefore help the grounding downward movement. I find that attachment (for example to people or TV) pulls the heart energy up towards the eyes, creating upward pressure along the front - rather than down towards the kidneys and lower dantian as in the MCO.

 

As well, sexual conservation and semen retention (if you're male) is important. I find that as semen/jing builds up, it puts energetic pressure up the spine at the tailbone, which translates into pressure from the crown down the front. The end result is stronger flow and an ability to ground more easily. In contrast, as jing is depleted it pulls energy down the spine and up the front, in effect reversing the MCO direction and draining the flow.

 

Diaphragm work has also helped me strengthen my flow. Here I tried a meditation alternating ocean breath (yin) and breath of fire (yang) in succession, and it had good benefits for my flow. The diaphragm (combined with reverse-belly breathing and good posture) activates a pump in the middle of the spine that strengthens overall flow along the Orbit.

 

Recently I've also started getting acupuncture to help move my stagnating chi. I'm discovering a blockage in the head area near the crown, for example. As this blockage clears I'm feeling a downward movement into the face. For you the patterns may be different, but it may be worth a try.  Community Acupuncture clinics offer a reasonable service at a good cost (and some health insurance plans cover it). 

 

The bottom line from what I've learned is that energy blockages and stagnation have multiple aspects to them - physical, emotional, mental, interpersonal. I think the more of these you address, the stronger your flow will be. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by asbc_tao

[StudentofMovement]

Is there a good resource you recommend with instructions for microcosmic orbit?

[voidisyinyang]

5 hours ago, StudentofMovement said:

Is there a good resource you recommend with instructions for microcosmic orbit?

 

you can get the meditation c.d. for "small universe meditation" from http://springforestqigong.com and then you just follow along - the level 1 is a half hour track or you can get an hour track. The half hour track has also an explanation track and a image with the different points - the 12 points or harmonic nodes. The 12 harmonic nodes are then discussed in detail in the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality - just google the book as it is online available. It is difficult to understand since different terms are used for the same thing and the same terms are used for different things. haha. You can find a word searchable version - that can help to cross-correlate the terms. But the whole book is focused on the "microcosmic orbit" meditation aka "small universe" or "small heavenly circuit."