Taoist adaptation?

[dawei]

First useful rule of Taoism is... there are no distinctions and thus no need for words... then along came Laozi to explain it in 5,000 words.    

 

There is no such thing as a Taoist or non-Taoist society... there just is.   Everything beyond that is our imagination gone wildly happy 

 

I don't think that was lost on Alan Watts either.  

 

Ah... welcome

 

[wandelaar]

@ dawei

 

So there is nothing more to say and we can close the forum...

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

So there is nothing more to say and we can close the forum...

 

Hi wandelaar,

 

What do we have to say about Lao Tzu's 5,000 words?

 

1 hour ago, dawei said:

... along came Laozi to explain it in 5,000 words.  

 

Hi dawei,

 

Is it possible for us to understand and agree on the 5,000 words?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

wandelaar - So there is nothing more to say and we can close the forum...

 

 

 

 

- LimA

Edited April 11, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[dawei]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

@ dawei

 

So there is nothing more to say and we can close the forum...

 

Laozi has been discussed for 2300 years... and likely much more...  so I am sure folks here want to continue to discuss what he said and meant... carry on !!!  

[dawei]

48 minutes ago, Limahong said:

Hi dawei,

 

Is it possible for us to understand and agree on the 5,000 words?

 

That is a very interesting point.. in a word or two, "yes", and then "no".

 

We might only potentially agree on the aforementioned point. 

 

For example... have you felt or visit Laozi ?   Based on a simple, 'yes' vs 'no'... the difference is profound...  

 

In lieu of such things... let's discuss it all

 

[Marblehead]

Well, last I heard the Tao Te Ching is second in translations only to the Christian Bible.

 

I would assume that there are a lot of people who feel Taoism should be discussed.

 

[Stosh]

I figure it an ironic possibility, that the number of books probably goes up the more folks would just prefer to hear it from the horses mouth instead. 

[Limahong]

26 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Tao Te Ching is second in translations only to the Christian Bible.

 

Hi Dada-da.

 

The more the translations, the more the loss in translation?

 

- LimA

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Dada-da.

 

The more the translations, the more the loss in translation?

 

- LimA

I doubt that works here.  Thing is, those who read Chinese and want to translate it into another language serve to help those who want a second opinion.

 

 

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, dawei said:

... in a word or two, "yes", and then "no".

 

Hi dawei,

 

 

- LimA

[Stosh]

45 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Dada-da.

 

The more the translations, the more the loss in translation?

 

- LimA

I figure the greater number of translations, the more likely that they collectively indicate the common bias about the words themselves. From there on, one has to derive the larger meaning and extricate it from the 2000 years of conventional massage,.

[Limahong]

34 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

second opinion

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

A second opinion is an opinion on a matter disputed by two or more parties. In legal cases, a second opinion which contradicts the opinion of a jointly retained expert may be disregarded as not being impartial. In consumer rights cases such as car repairs, a second opinion should be obtained in writing, and the original garage given an opportunity to rectify matters. In the case of clients' disputes with domestic building contractors, the builder may seek a second opinion to confirm their view. In medical cases a second opinion can be a visit to a physician other than the one a patient has previously been seeing in order to get more information or to hear a differing point of view. - Wikipedia

 

So it depends...

 

 

 

 

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

4 minutes ago, Stosh said:

... conventional massage.

 

Hi Stosh,

 

Non conventional message?

 

- LimA

 

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Stosh,

 

Non conventional message?

 

- LimA

 

I suppose thats quite close, but inverted in sentiment. Little by little, meanings and words Can shift in the retelling reuse. Eventually the old Chinese text becomes a forgotten anchoring point and the ship drifts free. Just speaking mandarin doesnt mean one understands the grammar, the associations, but it is going to make you think you do. 

[Limahong]

11 hours ago, Stosh said:

Eventually the old Chinese text becomes a forgotten anchoring point and the ship drifts free.

 

Hi Stosh,

 

Beautifully expressed - when the port of anchor is forgotten  and the ship drifts, where is the common ground for Taoist discourses?

 

To-date, I have yet to read the Tao Te Jing (TTJ). Why? I cannot read Chinese and thus the 5,000 words are lost to me.

 

Then why not read the translations? I am wary of loss in interpretation/translation.

 

So what is my orientation to Taoism? I grew up in a staunch Chinese family and I was exposed to daily living life as a Taoist since young.

 

Also on the philosophical front, I try and align the broad strokes of Taoism with an understanding of Nature.

 

All said, 'good' TTJ translations are good resources for those with different needs.

 

Thus (as dawei has said) - "Laozi has been discussed for 2300 years... and likely much more...  so I am sure folks here want to continue to discuss what he said and meant... carry on !!!  ".

 

- LimA

 

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Stosh,

 

Beautifully expressed - when the port of anchor is forgotten  and the ship drifts, where is the common ground for Taoist discourses?

 

To-date, I have yet to read the Tao Te Jing (TTJ). Why? I cannot read Chinese and thus the 5,000 words are lost to me.

 

Then why not read the translations? I am wary of loss in interpretation/translation.

 

So what is my orientation to Taoism? I grew up in a staunch Chinese family and I was exposed to daily living life as a Taoist since young.

 

Also on the philosophical front, I try and align the broad strokes of Taoism with an understanding of Nature.

 

All said, 'good' TTJ translations are good resources for those with different needs.

 

Thus (as dawei has said) - "Laozi has been discussed for 2300 years... and likely much more...  so I am sure folks here want to continue to discuss what he said and meant... carry on !!!  ".

 

- LimA

 

My own answer is to look to the contexts , the broad connotations , and compare to what I think a wise person might want to pass on to the next generation of his own kids. Thus, the anchor becomes the character of people themselves.

I always ask myself to give them the benefit of a doubt;, How is it that this comment CAN be seen as true?  In the West we have a tradition coming from the greeks , that we try to punch holes in every point , every angle. ANd , if we find a hole , we deem the statement as false .

In the East I think the tradition was more to have more respect for the person, the teacher or elder, making the statement.

In this case one leaves themselves open to the fact that sometimes someone else could be wrong before you and you would be perpetuating their error. SO..

How then to deal with the fact that Granpappy said something which doesn't jive with ones own experience , or learnin?  I think that one needs to take a Granpappy seriously , but with enough spin that one can be comfortable with it. Its likely that Granpappy meant it in this way. He wasnt an idiot. That's my starting presumption. 

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

I think that one needs to take a Granpappy seriously , but with enough spin that one can be comfortable with it. Its likely that Granpappy meant it in this way. He wasnt an idiot.

 

Hi Stosh,

 

I always look (still do) towards Grandpa as my anchor in the search for my roots even though he was long gone.

 

He was a no nonsense guy but very kind - he empathized with old beggars but not the young ones. He would give the latter a verbal thrashing if they dared to approach him for alms.

 

Finding and knowing my origin is important to me and I took "Granpappy seriously" - I came from his groin.

 

Whenever I come across anything in Nature that pertains to 'what/who I am', I think of Grandpa e.g.

 

 

 

The following also pertains to 'what/who I am' in my search but it also reminds me of 'nothing was too big' for Grandpa - what he stood for:

 

 

 

- LimA

Edited April 12, 2018 by Limahong
Correct errors.

[Stosh]

I like this question so I would like to expand on it 
Back in the old days , there was no TV , people venerated the texts and the people. Remember this as I bring up this quote from Chuang. 

Means and Ends

The purpose of a fish trap 
Is to catch fish,
And when the fish are caught
The trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare
Is to catch rabbits. 
When the rabbits are caught
The snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words
Is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped
The words are forgotten.

Now on the first hand this can be read that the means is not so important as the ends, and one can walk off feeling that they get the passage. 
But dwell on it , like a venerating person might.  Those words are important to him , the snare will need to be re-used , and at least one would need to extricate the rabbit. 
From this standpoint , one can see a downside to ends justifying the means , the import of the snare gets lost on the impulse to grab and go. 
The many applications of snares isnt investigated , and snares would be left all over the place injuring inocent wildlife, and people, long after ones belly was full.
So this statement so far ,  is a reflection or note , on human nature. 
Proceeding more ....

Where can I find a man
Who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.”

― Thomas Merton, The Way of Chuang Tzu

Now we need to ask why it is that Chuang would want to have a word with the impulsive leaver of snares 
It could be that he wants to talk with a person who is just being genuine and simple , who gets the basic idea and moves on...
 but it could also be to point out to the guy that the words mean more than first impulse might have revealed, and deliver a verbal thrashing.

(The words of courtesy memorized might be forgotten and yet still used habitually , and maybe he prefers to talk with someone who has learned to be courteous , its not just a waste of time, to show respect.)

ANyway ..
There seems here now, possibilities of there being both pro ,and con, sides to the un-reflective mind set being discussed. 
I am in accord with this , there are more tidbits to be gained, and one needs to consider the ramifications of ones justifications.
to ,,

Consider the text in the light of someone else's eyes.   

[Limahong]

8 minutes ago, Stosh said:

When the rabbits are caught
The snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words
Is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped
The words are forgotten.

 

Hi Stosh,

 

Harmful words are snares - but not the good ones.

 

Are harmful words easily forgotten?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- LimA

[Stosh]

Please don't inundate me with the memes.

The idea of forgetting the words is forgetting the formalized phrases , ritual terms and courtesies , which grease the wheels of social interaction. I can be abrupt , in my haste , and that's forgetting to spend the time to express carefully , sentiment. 

Harsh words can be blurted out , or they can be specifically engineered to suit a moments attack, they aren't really the one's that are forgotten by the recipient. But say I was to try to attain some end with the words , I might feel them justified, and dismiss them as, stuff you were basically  'asking !' to have blasted at you, which might happen when subtle hints are ignored.