Are Secrets Really Necessary . . . (?)

[Lataif]

(1) A recurring type of comment in this forum is:  "You can't learn from

books" . . . "You need a teacher" . . . and  "Details can't be discussed here".

 

(2) Basically:  some knowledge is dangerous for people and should only

be shared/explored in context of teacher/student relationship.

 

(3) Really (?)

 

(4) What's the rationale for such a conclusion (?)

 

(5) Does the Dao care if 999,999 people go crazy trying a practice . . . as

long as the millionth person succeeds with it (?) 

 

(6) BTW:  If beginning in the 1960s, the thousands of years of Chinese

secrets hadn't been revealed  to the West (including you and me) . . .

 they'd have been lost.

 

(7) My opinion: There are more realized Taoists in the West today than in

China.

 

(8) And how about:  centuries of Judo training in Japan . . . and within a

couple of generations of training, the Dutch were kicking the ass of the

Japanese  (?)

 

[9th]

There are a couple basic reasons for "secret" knowledge.

 

The most common one is that the knowledge requires a certain amount of correlation that is only possible with a trained mind - in other words, its not "secret" per se, its just too complicated to understand without training.

 

There are also many types of knowledge which can lead to very dangerous abilities when carried to their full extreme.  It is possible to develop these things without an understanding of natural cycles, and when that happens the world itself (as experience) can become destabilized in various ways due to overt manipulations which are not balanced by the universal principle of the trinity.  In this case the "secret" is one of those types that is typically proposed as "for your own good" or some such thing.  This is akin to the idea of "gun control". 

[thelerner]

The OP make some good points.  I can't argue against them.   Though having a teacher (vs book or video) is often a safer faster way of learning anything, also making things exclusive and mysterious.. sells better. 

 

I will point out that when it comes to esoteric energy arts, ie meditations that circulate energy.   Some people, particularly those who are energy sensitive or do too much, too soon, go nuts (to varying degrees).  People who've been involved in practice know a few that it's hit.  It's a minority, far end of the bell curve, with most in the middle, not getting a whole lot from the exercises, people at the other end getting..  'enlightenment' or big energy boosts to there systems. 

 

For those who crack up, the dao may not care, but they and there friends and family are put through hell.  So good teachers and experienced practitioners put up warnings. 

 

errata

Modern times have given rise to people taking the best from multiple sources.  Arts that ignore modern training techniques do so at there own risk.   For example  MMA,  hour for hour, month per month tends to produce imo better fighters.   On the other hand to lose the spirit and techniques of traditional martial arts would be very sad.  Hopefully there's room in this world for both.  But in a ring.. better to bet on the MMA guy.. in life.. quality of life.. might be a toss up.

Edited April 11, 2018 by thelerner

[9th]

12 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Modern times have given rise to people taking the best from multiple sources.  Arts that ignore modern training techniques do so at there own risk.   For example  MMA,  hour for hour, month per month tends to produce imo better fighters.   On the other hand to lose the spirit and techniques of traditional martial arts would be very sad.  Hopefully there's room in this world for both.  But in a ring.. better to bet on the MMA guy.. in life.. quality of life.. might be a toss up.

 

I dont agree with this perspective.  In most martial arts of todays world, the exclusively traditional ways are very few and far between.  Actual fighting techniques have continued to evolve along with the fighters that practice them, incorporating various ideas and knowledge from many forms.  Thats why MMA is so popular - it is literally the future of martial arts.  Bruce Lee is still the most popular modern example.

 

Quote

In the screenplay of the 1973 Warner Brothers film, Enter the Dragon, when Lee is asked, "What's your style?" Lee replied, "My style?...You can call it the art of fighting without fighting."

 

Bruce believed that kata forms and martial art tournament matches alike (like Karate) were simply "organised despair".

 

He believed that in order to "fully express oneself, one must" "have no limitations" (kata and rigid and non-flowing movements being the limitation). His system was revolutionary, and included all possible forms of strikes: attacks to the groin, finger jab to the eye.  Etc.

 

[Try]

Because each humans have different personalities. Student can choose teacher and teacher can also choose student. In the end may it be good or evil, you cannot run from the debt you owe from your doings.

 

You need a teacher to guide you so you can progress safer and quicker because the teacher already went that path. You can read book and progress but book aren't always right nor wrong. Teacher is like having map to a treasure hunt. It can guide you to certain degree but in the end, it's all still up to you. It becomes dangerous if you keep on plowing through without knowing everything. I experienced it myself, self training and something went wrong.

 

If it's lost, then it's just one way that is lost. Tao can still be realized with another road.

Quote

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao -DDJ ch1

 

About Taoist numbers, your opinion may be true or may be wrong, nobody can refute it unless they can proof it. But I think, even without practicing the Tao arts that are known today, people can still realize Tao.

 

If I'm not mistaken the ultimate goal of most MAs is to win with one hit. If you can win without fighting, then you're already beyond MA. When you can win with one hit, complex techniques/kata become meaningless. I recall one of the master says "Remember to forget, forget to remember".  In the end, achieving that is hard and MMA is proven to be better all over if you can't win with one hit.

[Lost in Translation]

 

1 hour ago, Lataif said:

(1) A recurring type of comment in this forum is:  "You can't learn from

books" . . . "You need a teacher" . . . and  "Details can't be discussed here".

 

(2) Basically:  some knowledge is dangerous for people and should only

be shared/explored in context of teacher/student relationship.

 

(3) Really (?)

 

(4) What's the rationale for such a conclusion (?)

 

Better question: Is it preferable to have a personal, exclusive relationship with a living, breathing teacher?

Real question: Is it necessary?

Edited April 11, 2018 by Lost in Translation
Fix typeo

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Regarding ”cant be discussed here” there is also the aspect of being told this is how it is.

 

Posit a teacher finds you, a student they trust, who seems to grasp the way of communication and transmission, perhaps the teacher then knows from experience how the skills and knowledge have pitfalls and before you’re given the green light to teach something you have been taught then your understanding of it isn’t complete enough to guide someone through those stages. You’re being taught certain formal exercises and some idiosyncracies but how you develop and retain it is going to shape your training also, because yout teacher will adapt to your particular situation.

 

Also, secrets appear when teachers realize that people who want to be taught everything because they want to know it and people who have the capacity to learn and accept their teaching aren’t necessarily interested in carrying it on.

If all you do is teach someone how to understand and use a set of skills and you see they themselves are not employing those skills to help those who might need them, thereby keeping the transmission alive, it’s not hard to see for someone who is concerned about transmission that their effort might be of better use somewhere else.

Perhaps this ”stingy” student will find their connection with teacher has slowly slipped into distance, feel slighted because their training hasnt been completed and they worked hard, so then the rest of their techniques are secret. Not because they have to be but because certain students fail to recognize or match up to their teachers plan.

Some people that have learned from the same teachers say contraddictlry things. Certain things might have deeper explanations that some recieved and some didnt. Nobody can tell from the outside but those who hold the transmission will recognize the telltale signs of someone who never had the opportunity to deepen their study around a particular concept. It’s a marker of sorts, this person didn’t advance further with teacher for some reason, perhaps i should be careful what i say, it might not be the right recipient for a valid reason... 

 

There is also the fact of checking your students mettle and character by telling them ”this is a secret, dont tell” and then observe said student. Are they making a big deal out of knowing secrets others dont? Are they excusing themselves saying ”sorry, i’m not in a place to discuss that.”

Are they telling everyone out of excitement thereby disobeying but with no malicious intent? Are they disseminating secrets maliciously or misrepresenting things because of ignorance?

Some teachers are unbelievably strict and have standards so high they’d rather kill their art than transmit it to a doofus or bully. They wont tell because they couldnt immagine openly disrespecting somebody like that but it’s their responsibility.

 

Traditional teachers are often considering things out of a perspective that involves a pretty complicated big picture, considering their own responsability towards their art and the people that trust them for help.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Rocky Lionmouth

[wandelaar]

I am wondering whether these days there are any real secrets left that are not already found in some books or somewhere on the internet. Of course anyone can create a "secret" by using some special terminology or symbols representing known processes, or one could consider something a "secret" that isn't actually true but only appears so when investigated by an uncritical believer. 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

I am wondering whether these days there are any real secrets

ppl talk about secrets unfettered by ever trying to think what exactly is 'a secret'

 

8 hours ago, Lataif said:

And how about:  centuries of Judo training in Japan . . . and within a

couple of generations of training, the Dutch were kicking the ass of the

Japanese  (?)

Judo is a sport which has very little to do the with the MA of the preceding centuries.

Anton Geesink won in an open weight class due to being a foot taller and 40 pounds heavier
 

[wandelaar]

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

ppl talk about secrets unfettered by ever trying to think what exactly is 'a secret'

 

Well - how would you define a secret and what would then be your idea of the role of such secrets in case they exist.

[Taoist Texts]

A secret is a skill, which can not be learned and/or  used by the 99%, even when fully explained, demonstrated and practiced. 

Anything else is not a secret, and coincidentally, also is futile in the end.

[Marblehead]

"The secret" reminded me of this story:

 

A Master had a student who was very promising as one who the Master would eventually pass all his knowledge to.

 

The student, a little arrogant, one day felt he had earned all the Master had to offer an challenged the Master to competition.

 

The Master accepted and 15 seconds after the competition began the student was flat on his back about to receive a death blow.

 

The Master helped the student to his feet and said, "Although you have learned well all I have taught you I have never said that I have taught you all that I know."

 

Most of us need to keep some things secret.

 

[wandelaar]

9 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

A secret is a skill, which can not be learned and/or  used by the 99%, even when fully explained, demonstrated and practiced. 

Anything else is not a secret, and coincidentally, also is futile in the end.

 

In that case there are lots of 'secrets' (in sports, science, art, etc.) that you can read about and find information on on the internet. 

 

6 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

"The secret" reminded me of this story:

 

A Master had a student who was very promising as one who the Master would eventually pass all his knowledge to.

 

The student, a little arrogant, one day felt he had earned all the Master had to offer an challenged the Master to competition.

 

The Master accepted and 15 seconds after the competition began the student was flat on his back about to receive a death blow.

 

The Master helped the student to his feet and said, "Although you have learned well all I have taught you I have never said that I have taught you all that I know."

 

Most of us need to keep some things secret.

 

There are lots of books about secret techniques in the martial arts so I doubt whether in that field there are any real secrets left. But you are right that it's a healthy principle not to teach someone a technique when you don't trust them to apply it in a sensible and moral way. That's just a question of responsibility not so much of esoteric secrets.

[Apech]

The way I understand 'secret' is 'confidential' or perhaps 'personal' in that there are exchanges between student and teacher which don't really work in a public scenario.

[Starjumper]

12 hours ago, thelerner said:

But in a ring.. better to bet on the MMA guy.. in life.. quality of life.. might be a toss up

 

Outside the ring better to bet on the assassin.

[9th]

I dont see much simple common sense here.  That is frankly pathetic.  Sorry, its just my honest opinion.

[LAOLONG]

[thelerner]

We live in an age where many 'secrets' are revealed but without the decades of training the crazy high stuff is probably beyond most of us.  (& the crazy high stuff is possible only through refining the low basics for long periods)

 

Reading a secret and learning the actual skill may be two very different things.  Especially in the martial art and esoteric world.  Without someone going through the subtleties, the little angles and attitudes repeatedly.. things might be almost impossible to learn.. cept by the rare genius's. 

[DaoKeeper]

On 11.04.2018 at 4:42 AM, Lataif said:

 

(7) My opinion: There are more realized Taoists in the West today than in

China.

Have you ever being to China taking lessons from Masters there?
While we have big community here we still are learning from Chinese (Masters, Books, Daoism, Confucianism etc.)

Well, perhaps I should better say "I still learning from Chinese"

[Starjumper]

I could give out a simple technique, how to give cancer to people, but I guess I'm keeping that one secret.

 

 

[Starjumper]

23 hours ago, thelerner said:

We live in an age where many 'secrets' are revealed but without the decades of training the crazy high stuff is probably beyond most of us.  (& the crazy high stuff is possible only through refining the low basics for long periods)

 

Reading a secret and learning the actual skill may be two very different things.  Especially in the martial art and esoteric world.  Without someone going through the subtleties, the little angles and attitudes repeatedly.. things might be almost impossible to learn.. cept by the rare genius's. 

 

Some secrets have been written about and even described well. The thing is people will not recognize the value of them nor know how to properly use them in order to benefit from said powerful techniques, or how to blend it in to the rest of a high power practice so that it forms an effective whole. 

 

For example, in eight years my chi kung teacher showed me a certain technique only once as part of our ever changing routine,

 

Then I forgot about this technique for some years.

 

Then I remembered it while practicing with my buddy so I did it.  We took turns leading and following.  Next week he was leading so he did the same technique but elaborated on it a bit.  Next week, my turn, I elaborated on it more.  By doing this we eventually discovered that this one thing my teacher did for one minute one time in eight years actually contained the keys to a whole world of high power methods used for cultivating high chi power.  If I had ignored it like the other guys, or if I had forgotten about it then it would be 'lost', but it isn't, it's just secret.  I mean, some of you may have seen it at one time or another without realizing what it was or had the feeling to appreciate it, so it's hidden out there in plain view.

[Starjumper]

Then there is this, there are so many scammers like cough Chia, and others who are the weekend warriors.  You know, the ones who go to a weekend seminar and get a 'certificate', then they quit their day job to start teaching.  Well I'll burn in hell before I'll share anything in public which one of them might pick up and start marketing as his own.  I dislike having people take things out of context, particularly when they are my things.

 

Where I come from a person would be a student of a master for ten years and then practice for twenty more years before they start teaching chi kung.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Regarding betting on fights and MMA or Assassins:

if you can afford it there are way better things to throw money at. Need a pocket to keep it in? Use mine!

[Lost in Translation]

Generally speaking, people need to feel they have "suffered enough" before they can move on to something good. Smith pointed this out perfectly in the first Matrix movie.

 

How is this relevant? Many "secrets" are not secrets at all. Rather they are knowledge that people fail to see / refuse to accept until they have satisfied themselves that they are "worthy". In other words, they have sufficiently suffered. This suffering is not always acknowledged as such, and may take the form of "I need to train for X number of years", or "I need to obtain Y degree", or "I need to follow Z tradition". These criteria are great. I don't disparage them, but they do form a kind of bar that essentially says "I'm not sufficient now. I need to suffer more before I can receive".

 

Human nature, what can you do?

[Stosh]

Value is often tied to price, and toleration links with commitment. So one who has learned their ways, is reluctant to dump them.

Suffering may cause one to abandon previous paradigms, and wisely so.

i dont think its the self image of unworthiness

so much as a tipping point between investment and reward. Looked at the other way, you get hazing rituals et al. An excuse for cruelty and power games which suits Mr Smith just fine. He likes spinning the human condition into being an insane perversion relative to the measured presumptions of a digital mind. He ironically wants to believe in the rightness of his hatred ,which is not really a rational position. No justification is required , the sun shines equally on the wicked and the just. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by Stosh