Are Secrets Really Necessary . . . (?)

[Jox]

Supposedly highly trained TDB_guys with secrets still cant avoid to criticize others ... What kind of mastery then do they possess? Just curious ...   

Edited April 13, 2018 by Jox

[Starjumper]

8 hours ago, Jox said:

Supposedly highly trained TDB_guys with secrets still cant avoid to criticize others ... What kind of mastery then do they possess? Just curious

 

That one's easy.

[wandelaar]

Besides not wanting to teach someone a technique you don't trust them with, keeping it secret also "protects" it from criticism. And if the working of a technique depends on your own belief in its effectiveness, criticism can destroy something that actually worked for you until then. Something like it might also be relevant for pieces of art, literature, music, etc. Brutal criticism might spoil (some of) your own appreciation.

[Daemon]

☮️

Edited October 5, 2018 by Daemon

[silent thunder]

When my awareness was the size of a ping pong ball and I read a book, or saw a movie, or studied a martial skill application.  I had a ping pong ball sized understanding of and relationship to that book, movie, or martial application.

 

When my awareness expanded to a basketball and I went back and reread that book, or revisited that martial application... my understanding and experience expanded and the experience was... completely different.  New dimensions, previously unconsidered were not potent realities.

 

Was there a secret?  absolutely.. was it purposeful?  Not necessarily.  Of course, some teachings will not be offered to all students. 

 

But Rocky put it well I thought.  Not all students have the awareness for all that is involved in a teaching.  Is this anyone's fault? Is it a conspiracy?  Not necessarily.

 

Teachings are like seeds strewn about the forest and students are like soil.  Not all seeds fall on soil capable of manifesting the entire plant and its fruit.  There is nothing wrong in this... but perhaps this is why when a teacher encounters a student who is truly fertile soil for the seeds being sewn, there is such radiant joy.  And why, when a student finds the teacher who offers what they truly resonate with, they radiantly open up and the teachings flow, truths are shared and secrets almost non-existent.

[Kar3n]

I think there is a ripening that needs to happen before all is revealed in any circumstance. The question is who decides who is ripe for knowledge?

 

I suspect the person (teacher) with the knowledge (secret) will identify markers or spontaneous realizations in others before telling all or even a portion.

 

I think of withholding information (secrets) in terms of telling a baby they can run before they have the ability to crawl. Once milestones are reached (baby example- rolling, scooting, crawling, standing, falling, standing, walking, falling, walking, running, falling...) many "secrets" reveal themselves.

 

We want language and someone else's experience to ascribe what we really already are and are capable of but are too lazy to do the work to uncover it for ourselves within ourselves.

[Hannes]

1. One can guide you to the fountain, but one cannot make you drink.

2. All knowledge has potential to be dangerous. Some things are not knowledge but changes within consciousness beyond knowledge. It is always helpful to have guides.

3. Stop thinking; start being.

4. The rational to see the limitations of the rational and overcoming those.

5. According to the Dao it might very well be that everyone is crazy.

6. They have been revealed and there everywhere around you. The revelation in yourself is a process you and every other person has to do individually. It is not about reasoning or understanding; it is about being and becoming.

7. your opinion depends on definition and is neither true or false

8. The Dutch accepted Judo. When a Chinese Daoist accepts the best the West has to offer he/she to will grow.

 

9. The unasked question.

There are no secrets. There is just waking up and the process of waking up.

Daoism is one way; there are others. Even in the west. Only the west didn't value and honor those as high in their culture so they are more hidden.

There is nothing to know really; it is more an experience.

[silent thunder]

25 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

I think there is a ripening that needs to happen before all is revealed in any circumstance. The question is who decides who is ripe for knowledge?

 

I suspect the person (teacher) with the knowledge (secret) will identify markers or spontaneous realizations in others before telling all or even a portion.

 

I think of withholding information (secrets) in terms of telling a baby they can run before they have the ability to crawl. Once milestones are reached (baby example- rolling, scooting, crawling, standing, falling, standing, walking, falling, walking, running, falling...) many "secrets" reveal themselves.

 

We want language and someone else's experience to ascribe what we really already are and are capable of but are too lazy to do the work to uncover it for ourselves within ourselves.

Ripening... that's a great point.  Time and space to allow things to settle into their arising forms and maturity.

 

All things cycle and flow.  Tend and prepare soil before planting.  After planting, cultivation of the seed and weeding out the unbeneficial... eventually though, what remains is simply to allow space and time to ripen without meddling, seeking or action. 

 

In this way I've noticed my old daily practices have transitioned into medicinal functions, rather than dietary in my life. 

 

What used to be breakfast, lunch and dinner, recently manifest in small doses from time to time, as the impulses ripen naturally...

 

 

[idquest]

Here is why we need secrets:

 

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast

ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them

under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

(Matthew 7:6 as I'm sure you all know).

 

 

When you have some pristine realisation, you don't want others spoil it with dirty hands. You want to make sure it falls into  decent hands. Not even talking about   lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.   part.

[Lost in Translation]

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

When my awareness was the size of a ping pong ball and I read a book, or saw a movie, or studied a martial skill application.  I had a ping pong ball sized understanding of and relationship to that book, movie, or martial application.

 

When my awareness expanded to a basketball and I went back and reread that book, or revisited that martial application... my understanding and experience expanded and the experience was... completely different.  New dimensions, previously unconsidered were not potent realities.

 

Well said.

 

When I watch "The Lion King" with a five year old we both enjoy the movie. Yet each of us takes away a different meaning from many of the scenes. Does the movie contain secrets? Is this a conspiracy against five year olds?

[Starjumper]

There's another aspect to this secret stuff that I don't think was mentioned specifically.  Keep in mind that the systems which will be the ones with the 'secrets'  are the vast nei kung systems which are said to contain ten thousand techniques.  Ten thousand in Chinese means 'too many to count' but, depending on how you count, there are easily thousands.  Let's pick two thousand to use as an example.  If you learn one new technique each week then thats around 50 a year, so it would take forty years to learn two thousand.  Remember, you also need to practice the new with the old so that you don't forget them.   If you learn four new techniques each week then thats ten years to cover the two thousand, and that's about right, ten years.  What actually happens is the teacher gives out several thousand methods, which contain the keys to the universe, and if the student is smart and dedicated he will use those keys to unlock the remaining thousands of methods along with their secrets.  If a teacher keeps a student past ten years he's just milking the cow, not to mention failing the student.

 

In the beginning of the practice the basics are learned, this is natural, right?  It isn't until plenty of time has gone by that a person even has the ability to appreciate some of the more high power methods, which are often quite boring and only a fiend would be interested.  

 

So what does that mean for the people who drop out after a couple of months ... after wasting your time and your life energy?

 

Can we see where this is going?

Edited April 14, 2018 by Starjumper

[Stosh]

On Friday, April 13, 2018 at 12:45 AM, Jox said:

Supposedly highly trained TDB_guys with secrets still cant avoid to criticize others ... What kind of mastery then do they possess? Just curious ...   

I dont think the criticim is all that indicative of what they do know. There are considerations. To rebel at skewed claims. To have a desire for the reader to not be swayed by cockeyed presentations. To maintain credibility. And so forth are all reasons to confront. 

The one thing you can securely say is that the perception of the entire subject presentation matters to them. 

Some might argue that one is with virtue if they do not give a shit. I dont. 

I think I can present excerpts that discuss the importance of meaning and significance . Or at least support oIt inferentially.. 

If one wants to show a person lacks a skill or misunderstands certain things, It would be most conclusive to expose and present alternatives to that particular thing. Rather than just imply that they have been critical, therefore they dont know anything. 

[liminal_luke]

In my more balanced moments, I have a kind of faith that the information I need will reach me when I`m ready for it.  In my less balanced moments (ahum), I imagine that my spiritual difficulties would evaporate if Taoist masters weren`t so darn stingy with secret techniques.  It`s not true, of course.  I know so many wonderful techniques, almost all of them not a bit secret, and they all work amazingly -- when practiced.

 

Want a secret technique?  Check out Michael Winn`s free ebook on the inner smile.  You do have to sign up for his newsletter at healingtaousa but that`s a small bother for the gift of the inner smile.  There are many, many more not-so-secret techniques shared here on this site and other places on the net.  Perhaps the only secrets truly worth having are the ones we work for, the knowledge that opens up to us by following the path of practice.  Maybe there are no secrets, just work yet to be done.

Edited April 15, 2018 by liminal_luke

[DaoKeeper]

All the secrets are on the surface and looks really obvious when you realize them.
However, you can spend 10 years for realizing them through your practice
OR (!)
Find a teacher who already did it for you. 

And yes teacher will take his price for that knowledge.
Fair? Fair enough.

We can say this about common things like mastership, but what about spirituality?
What about higher stages of the practice?

Not talking about "dangerousness" of the secret knowledge, I'd say that this knowlenge should have high price like all the precious things are.
And it should be kept in a secret like all the similar things in the world are.

[Starjumper]

15 hours ago, GSmaster said:

People who are slightly developed percieve average people like ants or less than ants. People who are highly developed percieve regular neikung practitioners like ants. Immortals percieve high level neikung practitioners like ants. Maguses percieve immortals like ants.

 

It seems to me that is more of a beginner's way of looking at things, later on the view is more like: "We're all Bozos on this bus", after that it's more like "nothing", we're all nothing, just some dirt with some awareness, however slight.  To be treated like dirt when the whim arrises, with unconditional love, of course.

 

And what the hell is a 'regular' nei kung practitioner other than some lost little egomaniac that has been duped by a teacher who is a bigger lost little egomaniac?  Since the concept of what real nei kung is has been so thoroughly bastardized I no longer wish to associate with the concept.  Fuck them all.  Truth is dead ... or secret = )

 

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This not a criticizm nor it is an ego or biased way to view things, it just a reality of things. You need to evolve to see for yourself a bigger view of the world. Then everything you had before including this life of sex, food, money and other "wordly interest" you will as a children ants playing in sandbox.

 

Not necessarily.  It depends on how you approach sex, food, and money.  The heavenly realms are no fun, there is nothing to do there.  The hell realms are no fun, there is nothing to do there.  The middle realms are fun, there is much to do and much to see.  Sadly mankind has converted a lot of it into an approximation of hell.

 

In any case, it appears that we're all Bozos on this bus here called DaoBums.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Starjumper

[Hannes]

25 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

In any case, it appears that we're all Bozos on this bus here called DaoBums

 

This is one of the most beautiful things I ever read here. 

 

[Desmonddf]

On 10/04/2018 at 10:42 PM, Lataif said:

(1) A recurring type of comment in this forum is:  "You can't learn from

books" . . . "You need a teacher" . . . and  "Details can't be discussed here".

 

(2) Basically:  some knowledge is dangerous for people and should only

be shared/explored in context of teacher/student relationship.

 

(3) Really (?)

 

(4) What's the rationale for such a conclusion (?)

 

(5) Does the Dao care if 999,999 people go crazy trying a practice . . . as

long as the millionth person succeeds with it (?) 

 

(6) BTW:  If beginning in the 1960s, the thousands of years of Chinese

secrets hadn't been revealed  to the West (including you and me) . . .

 they'd have been lost.

 

(7) My opinion: There are more realized Taoists in the West today than in

China.

 

(8) And how about:  centuries of Judo training in Japan . . . and within a

couple of generations of training, the Dutch were kicking the ass of the

Japanese  (?)

 

 

Please forgive me if i say things which are wrong.

 

1 - There are secrets which protect themselves. "You need to learn from a teacher" can have this kind of meaning. For instance, you cannot understand the taste of something never-before-tasted without someone cooking it for you. People may say "it tastes like chiken, but juicier".... well, will you start eating various meats and when you find some chicken which is juicier than normal, that means you found the right meat?

 

The same thing applies to many, many esoteric aspects of reality - the secret protects itself. For instance, i used to think prana, qi and reiki were the same thing until i began practicing a bit of yoga, became an acupuncturist and was initiated in reiki.

 

They are different   - as for HOW they differentiate amongst themselves, well... it's the feeling, the effects, the things they do inside and outside of you... basicaly everything, lol ._.

 

2 - This can be either derived out of the persons' own morals or an excuse. People do not like to teach regular humans how to turn batery water into sulphuric acid - because in the process you probably will expose the person to toxic fumes. Not everyone can proudly expose others to knowledge which may dissolve their lungs. That is even quite reckless. It's a matter of the person worried about itself and its own peace of heart than with others...

 

3, 4, 5 - Didn't understand, sorry.

However, i'd like to add that there is a very mundane reason for secrets : Power struggles are a reality, and our day and era may seem void of them (as if they didn't matter anymore), but that is only the proff that someone (or a very small amount of 'someones') have overwelming power above all others.

 

The power struggles will never end, because struggling is the nature of power. As long as we are talking power, and as long as someone cares about power and manages their resources with power in mind, some secrets so shall remain secrets - as much as our "era of information" so allows, of course

 

obs: False information seems to be the prefeered way of dealing with secrets these days. People will release a huge amount of fake information in order to cover up the real secrets and make people misinformed. Excess of information is as much as a poison as it is to have no access at it at all.

 

6 - Necromancy . Or, if you want to say that the dead don't talk (i disagree), you can always remember that all kinds of esoteric arts have had some kind of beginning, an inception of sorts. It can happen again, regardless of which it is.

 

7 - Cannot argue in favor or against such idea. My personal feelings, however, are that the score for "accomplishment" in the west has always been too low... (seriously, OBE as the 'peak' of anything is seriously weird). Also, the East have too many people which we don't know anything about. So, i keep having faith that most accomplished people are in the East. Otherwise, it would be just sad...

 

8 - Sport is very different from martial arts. Sambo and Muay Thai, for example, are well known for not holding any kind of "competitions". That's because they're really deadly. Traditional Judo, Gong-Fu, as well as Aikido and other such martial arts are made to break bones, crush things in your body which can go "pop" and squish organs. I believe we cannot compare both, sorry.

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by Desmonddf

[Starjumper]

19 hours ago, Desmonddf said:

obs: False information seems to be the prefeered way of dealing with secrets these days. People will release a huge amount of fake information in order to cover up the real secrets and make people misinformed. Excess of information is as much as a poison as it is to have no access at it at all.

 

That's great, I always looked at it as people making up stuff to make themselves seem more informed but this puts a good light on it!  I'm sure it happens both ways.

 

The misinformers have done an outstandingly thorough job.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Starjumper

[Limahong]

On 4/11/2018 at 6:39 PM, Marblehead said:

Most of us need to keep some things secret.

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

 

 

- LimA

[Nungali]

I think sometimes they are. But also are sometimes kept for bad or false reasons .

 

 

On 11/04/2018 at 11:42 AM, Lataif said:

(1) A recurring type of comment in this forum is:  "You can't learn from

books" . . . "You need a teacher" . . . and  "Details can't be discussed here".

 

I would say; You can only learn so much from books, as a beginner. A more learned person in a field may learn heaps from a book as they have a variant background beside the book.   I When I first got my old Dan Inasanto book, I couldnt make much sense of a lot of it. It went into storage for a while. years later, after much more learning teaching and training, the book is a treasure mine ! )

 

At some stage it is good to have some sort of teacher,  but 'having a teacher' ca also hold you back, depending on how you (and they ) manage it . In some areas I have surpassed my teacher  ( as he never goes and trains a elsewhere or practices with others 'outside' his tradition .

 

Some things even I won't discuss here , especially with certain people, and for a variety of reasons.   A lot would be lost without the  'learning context 'anyway.

 

 

Quote

 

(2) Basically:  some knowledge is dangerous for people and should only

be shared/explored in context of teacher/student relationship.

 

I think some is dangerous for some people.  Its always good to get a '2nd opinion' though. Then there is the issue of balance and and objective observer to help 'keep one on the rails' .

 

Quote

 

(3) Really (?)

 

Yup    

 

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(4) What's the rationale for such a conclusion (?)

 

A heap of reasons ;  as above,  but many more reasons .  For example, with naughty little boys and troublesome youths and unevolved adults, they often need training, a challenge,  discipline, and other things that a martial arts class might supply, if asked I might direct them to local aikido club.  A few times, people that work with troubled youth, or even a parent has asked about enrolling someone in our club ..... GOD NO!  I always tell them.   Totally inappropriate. 

 

Another  reason might be the danger of the practice , potential or real .   Ya gotta keep tabs on some people.   There is a practice where it is written,  each time the practice is broken, you slash your arm .  Some replace this with a simpler and less damaging or scaring practice  ( an elastic band on the wrist to snap ) a  small electric shock , etc .   One person might be missing the point and have an undercurrent of 'self-harm' and another might realise the essential of  this practice is actually the process within this outer severe written   form . If you dont have a teacher  to objectively advise you , if you're doing dangerous or risky  practices, I would hope you had a good friend or fellow practitioner  to do so.

 

This secrecy thing is a bit of an issue, for many years I heard people complain about our groups secrecy , I mean, we were out there and obvious, but a lot of the inner teaching and ceremony was for members only. People dont like that,  they wanted the stuff handed out free to any that cared to ask for it, without joining, committing or any type of responsibility whatsoever . ,

 

The stupid thing was ; we had two other forms of teaching these things ; a liturgical from, for those that way inclined; and public ritual/festivity form, where the teachings were enacted in various 'myths' and 'passion plays' .  But they didnt want to get involved n that either , to learn or participate

 

 they actually want .... 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

(5) Does the Dao care if 999,999 people go crazy trying a practice . . . as

long as the millionth person succeeds with it (?) 

 

 

It doesnt  .... people care about that ... thats why people keep secrets .   The Dao keeps no secrets ... they are all around us expressed in nature .

 

Many see 'secrets' in the things they have not yet come to comprehend .

 

 

Quote

 

(6) BTW:  If beginning in the 1960s, the thousands of years of Chinese

secrets hadn't been revealed  to the West (including you and me) . . .

 they'd have been lost.

 

 

This is true . and true with many things .   At the moment, in Australia ( and no doubt elsewhere )  indigenous elders are dying, with no heirs, taking ancient knowledge with them.  Yet, it is possible others might find that information or new information again.  So we need to find ways to preserve these secrets' .

 

We have national archives in Canberra which are kept secret, even the archivist may not access to them ; there are sections for men, women,  uninitiated, and men and women, initiated, and other sub sections that only a few have access to . That way, if a custodian dies, there is still a record of their knowledge .

 

Quote

 

(7) My opinion: There are more realized Taoists in the West today than in

China.

 

Well, with my access to western stuff, and my restriction to eastern stuff (eg, via media, culture  etc )   it certainly appears that way !

 

Then agen again, maybe its because there is a bigger 'market' in the west  ?      

 

Quote

 

(8) And how about:  centuries of Judo training in Japan . . . and within a

couple of generations of training, the Dutch were kicking the ass of the

Japanese  (?)

 

 

Or Karate in Okinawa ..... within a couple of generations of training the Americans turned it into one of the most shitful arts ever !

 

(and if you dont realise that, hear it from the very mouth of one of their most senior  and popular proponents ;  The 'George Dilman and Hokan Soken youtube - 56 reflections ' )

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by Nungali

[DaoKeeper]

Just curious where is the topic starter...
 

P.S.

Spoiler

I actually enjoy the discussion 

 

[silent thunder]

Aye, so simple.

simple like water... often unnoticed even by the fish that swim in through it.

Edited April 23, 2018 by silent thunder
change a word

[9th]

And thats why a "WORD" isnt the same as a "LOGOS"

[RiverSnake]

Power corrupts and knowledge destroys, those who are not ready to receive it. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by StormHealer

[silent thunder]

breath flows in

breath flow out

 

mind rattles and settles by turns

 

growth provides decay

decay nourishes growth

 

what is so secret?