Are Secrets Really Necessary . . . (?)

[9th]

 

DEJA VIEW, FOLKS!!!

[9th]

2 hours ago, StormHealer said:

Power and knowledge 

 

AWWWW...

DONT BE JELLY

...

 

[Michael Sternbach]

On 11.4.2018 at 3:42 AM, Lataif said:

(1) A recurring type of comment in this forum is:  "You can't learn from

books" . . . "You need a teacher" . . . and  "Details can't be discussed here".

 

I think that learning from books and other medias works better for some individuals than for others. I always did a lot of reading on any topic I was interested in. One of the effects this had was that it helped me realize that the knowledge of my 'live teachers' had its limitations too.

 

That said, I did and do learn plenty from both kinds of sources. And there have been often enough been various 'interactions' between them. Sometimes, being informed about a topic beforehand by way of books turned out to be a good preparation for subsequent live instruction. By the same token, at other times, receiving live instruction was a prerequisite for really making  sense of what I was reading.

 

On some occasions, a teacher was actually transferring something more  than "just" (intellectual) information to me. Yet the same could be said of certain books, especially the ones that played a pivotal role in my development.

 

Sure enough, there are topics that I studied on my own for decades without ever receiving any live instruction, and without ever feeling I was missing something.

 

In any case, personal practice was what mattered most.

 

I may address some of your other statements when I find the time.

 

[9th]

12 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

I think that learning from books and other medias works better for some individuals than for others. I always did a lot of reading on any topic I was interested in. One of the effects this had was that it helped me realize that the knowledge of my 'live teachers' had its limitations too.

 

That said, I did and do learn plenty from both kinds of sources. And there have been often enough been various 'interactions' between them. Sometimes, being informed about a topic beforehand by way of books turned out to be a good preparation for subsequent live instruction. By the same token, at other times, receiving live instruction was a prerequisite for really making  sense of what I was reading.

 

On some occasions, a teacher was actually transferring something more  than "just" (intellectual) information to me. Yet the same could be said of certain books, especially the ones that played a pivotal role in my development.

 

Sure enough, there are topics that I studied on my own for decades without ever receiving any live instruction, and without ever feeling I was missing something.

 

In any case, personal practice was what mattered most.

 

I may address some of your other statements when I find the time.

 

 

 

did you learn to drive a car by reading books?

 

see how that works there?

 

did you get it?

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, 9th said:

 

 

did you learn to drive a car by reading books?

 

see how that works there?

 

did you get it?

 

Did you learn to read without books?

 

See how that works?

 

Did you get it?

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, 9th said:

 

 

did you learn to drive a car by reading books?

 

see how that works there?

 

did you get it?

 

Second reply:

 

Nope. But it would indeed be possible to learn driving a card by reading about it - and practice.

[9th]

5 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Second reply:

 

Nope. But it would indeed be possible to learn driving a card by reading about it - and practice.

 

Tell me more about this "driving a card" stuff...

 

sounds kinky

[liminal_luke]

On books vs. live teaching.

 

I think  it depends a lot on what you`re trying to learn.  Where live teaching is indispensable, in my experience, is with really subtle movement practices like tai ji.  My tai ji teacher used to have us hold a position and come around and make slight corrections.  Sometimes he would adjust the position of my wrist or fingers by just a few millimeters and all of a sudden the energy connected, for lack of a better work, and I felt...well, I`m not sure what I felt but it was good.  

 

Now I`m not saying it`s impossible to learn any tai ji from a book or a dvd.  It`s probably possible to learn a lot, especially if a person is good at thinking spacially and is kinesthetically talented.  But at a certain point, the necessary adjustments are so subtle and specific to the individual learner that no video or book could cut it.  

 

Still, better a good book than a bad teacher.

 

Other subjects are better suited to book learning.  I think a person could learn lots of meditative techniques from a book, for instance.  A few months ago, I was reading a forum about Master Wang Li Ping`s practice when all of a sudden -- boom.  Something happened to me.  I`m convinced I picked up on the energy of some practice just from reading about it.  That kind of thing is probably pretty common.  Even if a person doesn`t understand the words, the energetic signature of the practice is there in the book.  Is that the same as attending a workshop or retreat?  I`m sure it`s not, but it was pretty interesting just the same.

Edited April 23, 2018 by liminal_luke

[Michael Sternbach]

39 minutes ago, 9th said:

 

Tell me more about this "driving a card" stuff...

 

sounds kinky

 

Try this one...

 

[9th]

9 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Try this one...

 

 

A bit too mainstream for me.  I did see a red convertible Jaguar XJS at Best Buy today, tho.

 

true story!

 

like this:

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

13 hours ago, 9th said:

 

A bit too mainstream for me.  I did see a red convertible Jaguar XJS at Best Buy today, tho.

 

true story!

 

like this:

 

 

 

I believe you. But what has this got to do with card driving? 

[silent thunder]

My Dad had one of those for a few years.

Same model/year/color...

She was throaty and loved the pavement.

I miss Dad.  That fucking grin he had...

when life was flowing unimpeded

and he just fucking knew it.

 

that grin.

I miss that.

 

eta:  that's not a secret.

Edited April 24, 2018 by silent thunder

[dawei]

secrets are necessary by definition.   If you speak the word/concept, it manifests.   

[Michael Sternbach]

On books vs. live teaching again:

 

When the ingenious physicist Theodor Kaluza (who laid much of the foundation of String Theory) wanted to demonstrate the often underestimated power of intellectual knowledge, he (a non-swimmer) read a book about swimming, plunged into the water and swam!

[Lataif]

6 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

On books vs. live teaching again:

 

When the ingenious physicist Theodor Kaluza (who laid much of the foundation of String Theory) wanted to demonstrate the often underestimated power of intellectual knowledge, he (a non-swimmer) read a book about swimming, plunged into the water and swam!

 

 

(1) That's a great contribution to this topic.  Really great.

 

(2) Reminds me of the story about a Tibetan master who was 

introduced to swimming and a swimming pool for the first time.

 

(3) He just walked over . . .  and jumped in.

 

(4) I tried to google it -- but this is the closest I could find:

 

https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/tibetan-immigrants-learn-swim-australia/2718832.html

 

Quote

“The Tibetans were very excited and very happy to be at the swimming center. The first thing I notice is they just jump in and that gave me the biggest scare of my life because none of them could swim. Tibetans in general are not afraid of the water. They love being near the ocean. They love going in the water, but they really don't know how to swim.”

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Lataif
spelling

[exorcist_1699]

On 4/11/2018 at 9:42 AM, Lataif said:

.................

 

(4) What's the rationale for such a conclusion (?)

 

(5) Does the Dao care if 999,999 people go crazy trying a practice . . . as

long as the millionth person succeeds with it (?) 

 

(6) BTW:  If beginning in the 1960s, the thousands of years of Chinese

secrets hadn't been revealed  to the West (including you and me) . . .

 they'd have been lost.

 

(7) My opinion: There are more realized Taoists in the West today than in

China.

 

(8) And how about:  centuries of Judo training in Japan . . . and within a

couple of generations of training, the Dutch were kicking the ass of the

Japanese  (?)

 

 

I don't know anything about secrets in martial arts,  what  I want to talk  about  here is the secret of Taoist alchemy .

 

Likely something you have to keep for thousands of years   , I think , as secret  is something of  extreme importance , something  having top secret character , not anything ordinary  in some expertise .

 

It is all about physical immortality .

 

On this planet , there are only two groups of people who dare to talk about physical immortality : The scientists who think that by some kind of DNA engineering , or by growing human organs in a laboratory , someday in future, maybe just few decades away, they can grant immortality to humans .

 

Another group of people is called Taoists, whom can be viewed as the most weird people ever lived or living   , who claim that they already succeeded physical immortality thousands years ago ; although not  believing in the existence of  any  Creator  of this universe , they believe in qi , and its delicate form , shen ,that can give people  immortality . So, to be fair  , they are  guys/ women not religious.

 

Both of them  have  followers , but comparing to believers in Science , number of believers in Taoism is shrinking .. I mean, on the Mainland China.

 

Both of them are also brave because whenever you talk about physical immortality, people ask for proofs.  Taoists are not reluctant to give you proofs, but they are reluctant to  give you all secrets to attain them. 

 

It is first about jing , the stuff that qi based on; or more precisely  speaking ,  about the Yuan-jing(" 元精 "  ) or meta-jing  ;

The principle is that with enough  jing  in your body, you will never die ( being hit and killed by an  airplane  crashed into your house is another story ) , but how to accumulate it  can be very  tricky .. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2018 by exorcist_1699

[Michael Sternbach]

15 hours ago, Lataif said:

 

(1) That's a great contribution to this topic.  Really great.

 

(2) Reminds me of the story about a Tibetan master who was 

introduced to swimming and a swimming pool for the first time.

 

(3) He just walked over . . .  and jumped in.

 

(4) I tried to google it -- but this is the closest I could find:

 

https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/tibetan-immigrants-learn-swim-australia/2718832.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, it has been shown that, when under hypnosis, individuals are suddenly capable of feats that would normally require long practice. This has been demonstrated for a variety of activities, ranging from painting to shooting. What is more, back in their normal state of mind, they tend to keep some of their newly found skills!

 

It is also known that a learning process can be greatly accelerated when undergone in a relaxed mind, with a brain wave frequency from about 7 to 14 cycles a second (a so-called alpha state). Children naturally dwell in that kind of state much more often than adults, and it is likely that this is a major reason why they generally assimilate new knowledge more easily than the latter.

 

Bear in mind that Daoist texts often refer to the child-like state of the sage...

[Michael Sternbach]

On 11.4.2018 at 3:42 AM, Lataif said:

(2) Basically:  some knowledge is dangerous for people and should only

be shared/explored in context of teacher/student relationship.

 

(3) Really (?)

 

(4) What's the rationale for such a conclusion (?)

 

This brings to mind a discussion I had awhile ago with my Kenpo instructor. I was wondering why style founder Ed Parker had chosen not to share certain knife fighting techniques with the general public.

 

Instructor: "Because they are too dangerous."

Me: "Well, they are hardly more dangerous than a gun. And that's something that, in a number of states, any of his students could buy at Walmart!"

Instructor: "Hmm, yes, but he would not be the one who sold it to them."

 

Okay, fair enough. The question of personal liability.

 

Obviously, different people have different views on this though, because what in one school is considered extremely dangerous knowledge that only a few chosen ones are entitled to, may be freely available to all from another source, especially in our modern era of the Internet. (And that's something that holds true not only for the martial arts, to be sure.)

 

Some of the traditional rationales for secrecy are not as valid anymore these days. Martial arts schools would often disguise knowledge out of fear of enemies using it against them. E.g., Bruce Lee was among the first sifus accepting non-Chinese students, and it earned him plenty of animosity from the more traditionally minded Kung Fu community. His reply was: "If the white man wants to harm us, he has other means of doing so. He is taller, after all." 

 

Another reason for secrecy can be exclusivity, for the sake of prestige and/or financial gain.

 

Okay, to be fair, there may still be knowledge that does not belong in the hands of everybody for ethical reasons. But this is considerably less often so than claimed, IMO.

 

On the other hand, it is an undeniable fact that many positive developments are much facilitated by the free flowing exchange of information.

 

Quote

 

(5) Does the Dao care if 999,999 people go crazy trying a practice . . . as

long as the millionth person succeeds with it (?) Are

 

It just might.

 

Quote

(6) BTW:  If beginning in the 1960s, the thousands of years of Chinese

secrets hadn't been revealed  to the West (including you and me) . . .

 they'd have been lost.

 

That's quite possible. Likewise, in Japan, you will often see foreigners taking more interest in traditional arts and philosophical teachings than the natives. E.g., in the Aikido studios I visited there, it was not uncommon that most attendants were non-Japanese.

 

Quote

(7) My opinion: There are more realized Taoists in the West today than in

China.

 

That's possible too. I have repeatedly heard Chinese Daoists say they enjoy communicating with Western ones so much because they can't find anybody in their own environment to talk about Dao and its associated arts with.

 

Quote

(8) And how about:  centuries of Judo training in Japan . . . and within a

couple of generations of training, the Dutch were kicking the ass of the

Japanese  (?)

 

 

Well, Judo has simply been disseminated to the degree that it is no longer a Japanese domain. And this is true, to varying degress, for other Japanese arts as well. Just part of the globalization process, I would say.

[KuroShiro]

4 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

Another group of people is called Taoists, whom can be viewed as the most weird people ever lived or living   , who claim that they already succeeded physical immortality thousands years ago ; although not  believing in the existence of  a Creator  for this universe , they believe in qi , and its delicate form , shen ,that can give people  immortality . So, to be impartial  , they are not religious guys/ women.

 

You're saying Shen is a more "refined" type/form of Qi but is Qi nonetheless?

 

 

4 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

It is first about jing , the stuff that qi based on; or more precisely  speaking ,  about the Yuan-jing(" 元精 "  ) or meta-jing  ;

The principle is that with enough  jing  in your body, you will never die ( being hit and killed by an  airplane  crashed into your house is another story ) , but how to accumulate it  can be very  tricky ..

 

What about Yuan-Qi where do you place it in relation to Yuan-Jing? It's also said that with enough Qi in your body you will never die right?

[exorcist_1699]

5 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

That's possible too. I have repeatedly heard Chinese Daoists say they enjoy communicating with Western ones so much because they can't find anybody in their own environment to talk about Dao and its associated arts with.

 

 

It is said that Damo , the guy who initialize the Chinese Zen movement,  when leaving the  southern India on his trip to China by boat more than  thousand years ago, told people that it was because of the shrinkage of the Indian mind and the great atmosphere ( " 大乘氣象")  he saw in the East that  introduced him to go . Believe , or just interested  in Taoism ,  nowadays requires some insight,  not only because it is somewhat against  common sense ,  but also because of the growing dominance of scientism . At the place where people's mind are shrinking of course  you find Taoist truth falling on dead ears . 

Edited April 27, 2018 by exorcist_1699

[Starjumper]

8 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

Another group of people is called Taoists, whom can be viewed as the most weird people ever lived or living   , who claim that they already succeeded physical immortality thousands years ago ; although not  believing in the existence of  any  Creator  of this universe , they believe in qi , and its delicate form , shen ,that can give people  immortality . So, to be fair  , they are  guys/ women not religious.

 

I used to think that Taoism was divided into religious, martial, and energy cultivation segments but I was incorrect.  Those are classifications given to Taoism by small minded Western observers who need to separate things into different categories in order to analyze/define them.  Western mental colonialism

 

All the different segments are like a might river that sometimes divides into different streams and then rejoins into one river again.  

 

In fact real nei kung, which is not at all like the nei kung advertised and sold these days, is an official part of the Taoist religion.  So this them makes me a kind of religious Taoist, which is something I had thought I was not.  Religions commonly divide into a spectrum that goes from mystic at one end to fundamentalist at the other.  Yin and yang.  The nei kung players are on the mystical end and the people who like to go to temples to worship statues are on the fundamentalist end ... and we used to find a lot of the people somewhere in the middle.

 

I advise to not play with the word shen when the meaning is so variable as to be useless.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Starjumper

[blue eyed snake]

On 4/16/2018 at 12:33 AM, liminal_luke said:

Maybe there are no secrets, just work yet to be done.

 

agree

[Michael Sternbach]

 

Talking about studying martial arts on your own, this dude has some really useful advice.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Michael Sternbach

[exorcist_1699]

4 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

You're saying Shen is a more "refined" type/form of Qi but is Qi nonetheless?

 

What about Yuan-Qi where do you place it in relation to Yuan-Jing? It's also said that with enough Qi in your body you will never die right?

 

The refined , self-conscious  form of qi can be called shen ; 

 

At the so-called pre-heavenly level /stage, jing , qi and shen are something  united , and because  they are so fundamental to life and formless , we add  the term "yuan" ( original / basic ) to them . At post-heavenly level/ stage,  when they are embodied in a physical body, they split but still related to each other . For example, any deficiency  of  jing  makes people  tired , not wanting to move ; any  deficiency of qi makes people lose their memory , even faint ..etc. When we  accumulate  jing  in our body , we also aggregate our  qi ;   the  stuff embedded in qi that gives  you sex pleasure ,  feelings of  having endless energy ,  capable of understanding anything ..etc  can be identified as jing . 

Edited April 27, 2018 by exorcist_1699

[Liberius Ultorus]

There are truly no secrets. All things can be accomplished by cultivating a healthy Qi flow inside of yourself. You know the meridians and the organs; you don't need any knowledge to feel what flows where and what is blocked. Remove the blockages. 

Any manifested act is accomplished by moving with unmanifested Qi. Manifested disciplines like fighting, or any skill for that matter,  serve to teach one how to move Qi in the first place. All you need to know is that Tao is the way and to move with it. Qi will be cultivated by moving with Tao. Be happy and cultivate Qi.

God had no formula or magic spell for the creation of the Earth; he just spoke.