Following the Tao and flexibility

[wandelaar]

The sage is supposed to follow Tao in the sense of living and (non-)acting like the Tao. But how does the Tao itself live and (non)act? I can understand some of the qualities ascribed to the Tao such as being hidden, not partial, eternal, dynamic. But now how about soft and flexible. Does not the Tao manifest as a stone or fire just as well as like water? Are not both the bending grass en the firm tree both manifestations of Tao? It looks like the Taoist choice for the soft way is just that, a choice. Or am I missing something?  

 

[Marblehead]

Great questions.  I have always thought of it as strength and flexibility.  I know, the Tao is oftentimes soft but yet does what needs be done and hardly anyone notices.

 

Sure, flow like water but don't forget the rapids and waterfalls.  These are not soft.  

 

I would rather look at the grass and the tree together rather than individually.  The flexibility of the grass but the strength of the tree.

 

The "(non-)acting" you mentioned I view as acting without alterior motive.  Or perhaps acting without motive.  That is, just doing what needs be done.

 

As with Yin/Yang, we cannot always be soft.  Nor can we always be flexible.  Sometimes we must be strong and rigid.  Then othertimes soft and flexible.

 

Yes, perhaps initially it is a choice.  We choose to walk the path of Tao.  But as we become better at walking it becomes more like an instinct, intuitive.  At this point perhaps there is no other choice?

 

 

[wandelaar]

In that case the many encouragements in the Tao Te Ching to be soft and flexible could be meant to counteract our general tendency to err in the direction of being too rigid and demanding?

Edited April 11, 2018 by wandelaar

[Stosh]

Yeah , great penetrating question .

IMO the Tao , is manifested as physical forces, and the consequences of them follow. There are the basic rules like gravity , ice formation , and even basic human nature.

It, Tao , is invariable in what those 'laws' and principles are,

but how they play out in the tapestry of events is the sum total we call causality.

EX:  Bring the heat fuel and oxygen together and voila , you get a chain reaction event,

which may bang ,or burn ,depending on the fuel. 

 

Similarly , as a human you have your nature , which we may call attitudes or propensities etc. and these play out a tapestry one calls a life , depending on the exact local circumstance. 

So , if a person were being flexible like the Tao , it doesn't mean you have to be a weenie, it means that you abide by your true nature without deviation , regardless of the particular circumstance. Often its called being like water. The water , an elemental force , does its thing , Always.

Whether sitting in a bowl reflecting , or pounding a shore. 

 

[silent thunder]

One is not superior to the other.

They are not separate.

Hard and Soft.  Rigid and Flexible.

All have their benefits.

 

Like growth and decay... always flowing into and from each other.

endlessly from the bellows of dao

 

Dao gives birth to all and all exist on a spectrum.

Nothing is separate from dao... ever.

 

 

[idquest]

Dao is neither flexible or rigid. It just is. Man wants to follow /align with Dao and for that man has to be flexible or rather wu wei.

[wandelaar]

Well it looks like in (modern) society behaving naturally isn't enough. There are too many things Tao (or nature or evolution) didn't prepare us for. People become the slave of their own mobile phones, eat too much, take too little physical exercise, etc. So it looks like some conscious corrections to our natural impulses are necessary for keeping on the right track. 

 

 

[idquest]

Whatever you think the modern world is - Dao is always bigger. You think this generation is something special? Think again.

[Stosh]

What makes you think the mobile phones , overeating, and sloth ,are unconscious 'natural' behaviors rather than learned foibles? 

It seems then , that you consider your true nature to be  lazy ,over indulgent, self absorbed . 

And going farther , that you need to be disciplined , modified , corrected , to be that which you approve of. 

Dao encourages the expression of your true self, (the uncarved wood ) , and unless its saying that you should intend to be self destructive, or antagonistic to others  , it is not considering your true nature to be so. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Stosh

[silent thunder]

breath flowing in...

stories abound in a mind

breath falling out...

[wandelaar]

We don't learn people to overeat, become addicted to their mobile phones, or take too little physical exercise. Quite the contrary! Nevertheless it happens against the peoples best intentions. People are not evolutionary prepared to deal with the abundance of possibilities and consumer goods modern society affords. The point is discussed in the book How to Want What You Have by Timothy Miller.

 

It's like taking an animal that evolved to live in a certain environment and putting it in a radically changed environment it's not prepared for to live in. The natural reflexes of the animal will then become inappropriate and accidents will happen.

 

So the problem is not in the current generation being too lazy or anything but in society (and in particular technology) changing more rapidly than our evolving human nature can follow.

 

But already Lao Tzu saw the problem and advised a return to the simple live in a small village.

[Stosh]

Change of venue, to a situation in which one can prosper is a very fine idea, it obviates all that disciplining.

But yes people do- learn- to do self destructive things , and you're perfectly well adapted to handle consumer goods, because plenty of people do so.  But,, if you're going to be switching up , from pronouncements of laziness , to victim besieged by abundance,, well, I leave you to the doom scenario of your choice , find a nice mud hut somewhere. 

[wandelaar]

@ Stosh

 

That's just a bunch of fallacies. But if that's your style I leave it at that.

 

 

 

 

 

[dawei]

10 minutes ago, Stosh said:

 find a nice mud hut somewhere. 

 

That would be an irony... that man is so conditioned by modern times that he can no longer go back to a mud hut 

 

I've wondered this... if Laozi, while he does use duality as a given, he also sometimes appears to have 'picked' a side.  I resolve this by looking at what he is advocating, softness, and then NOT seeing its opposite (which would be a dualistic point of view), but simply see the intrinsic attribute as how Dao manifests and infuses things... that whether you are soft or strong, simple or complex, do either in a 'soft' and 'simple' way; in such a way that you do not feel it is strong nor complex... it simply is... and that base state of 'is', is soft and simple.

 

I can hear the counter argument... so be like a child, as Laozi says, but what can a child really do?  It is not about being a child but child-like in simplicity.

 

 

One chapter that jumps out to me is 61:

 

D. Lin

The large country is like the lowest river
The converging point of the world
The receptive female of the world
The female always overcomes the male with serenity
Using serenity as the lower position
Thus if the large country is lower than the small country
Then it can take the small country
If the small country is lower than the large country
Then it can be taken by the large country
Thus one uses the lower position to take
The other uses the lower position to be taken
The large country only wishes to gather and protect people
The small country only wishes to join and serve people
So that both obtain what they wish
The larger one should assume the lower position

 

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

So the problem is not in the current generation being too lazy or anything but in society (and in particular technology) changing more rapidly than our evolving human nature can follow.

 

Consider the difference between "being" [to be] and "doing" [to do].

 

One is a statement of existence. The other is statement of action.

 

People love to "do things". But, when the world changes and the things you used to do no longer serve you, you better learn how to do other things.

 

As for being? Well, once you learn how to be - that's it. Nothing else is necessary. Of course you are still free to do as much (or little) as you like. The hard work is already done.

[wandelaar]

7 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

People love to "do things". But, when the world changes and the things you used to do no longer serve you, you better learn how to do other things.

 

If it were just that simple!

[Lost in Translation]

1 minute ago, wandelaar said:

 

If it were just that simple!

 

It IS that simple!

 

[wandelaar]

What I get out of this discussion thus far is that the Tao manifests itself as soft or hard depending on the circumstances and a Taoist should to. Beyond that there is a sense in which a Taoist should be unequivocally soft and flexible and not hard and rigid, and that is in putting egocentric considerations aside whether or not the situation requires a hard or soft approach.

[wandelaar]

40 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

People love to "do things". But, when the world changes and the things you used to do no longer serve you, you better learn how to do other things.

 

Lao tzu evidently saw a problem in "modern life" even in his own day! See chapter 80.

 

That doesn't prove there is a problem, but at least it proves a Taoist can see a problem here.

[dawei]

I'd replace the word "problem" with "life"...  In the time of Laozi's writings was the Warring state period... you can imagine Ch. 80 as of utmost importance in meaning then... and thus, as you suggest, even today

 

Was Laozi trying to 'fix' something?  

 

I don't think so... as he said:

 

Dao gives them life; De nurtures their growth.

 

He is just pointing back to the inner powers everyone has... We often don't talk enough about De... but whereas Dao is the blueprint explanation of how it works, De is the inner working...  JMO. 

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, dawei said:

 We often don't talk enough about De... but whereas Dao is the blueprint explanation of how it works, De is the inner working...  JMO. 

Oh, we are talking about De, it's just that we are calling it Tao.

 

The title of Wayne Wang's translation of the TTC is:  "Dynamic Tao and its manifestations"  We can't talk about unmanifested Tao so we talk about Te and call it Tao.

 

[Lost in Translation]

14 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

The title of Wayne Wang's translation of the TTC is:  "Dynamic Tao and its manifestations"  We can't talk about unmanifested Tao so we talk about Te and call it Tao.

 

That is a fantastic book!

[dawei]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Oh, we are talking about De, it's just that we are calling it Tao.

 

The title of Wayne Wang's translation of the TTC is:  "Dynamic Tao and its manifestations"  We can't talk about unmanifested Tao so we talk about Te and call it Tao.

 

 

tuse 

 

[liminal_luke]

12 hours ago, wandelaar said:

In that case the many encouragements in the Tao Te Ching to be soft and flexible could be meant to counteract our general tendency to err in the direction of being too rigid and demanding?

 

I`m not sure there`s a discrepancy between the flexibility of a blade of grass and the sturdiness of a mighty oak.  Both beings are effortlessly being themselves, expressing in every moment their inherent nature.  We might do likewise.

 

Suppose I study Daoist internal arts for many decades.  I teach my body to be soft and yielding while maintaining a certain energetic vibrancy -- not deficient or collapsed.  Should circumstances demand, I`d be able to softly and gently pierce the heart of my energy with a sharp sword.  Softness need not be passive.  Indeed, maybe that`s the point: only from a place of extreme openness and relaxation can we harness our ultimate strength.

[gendao]

11 hours ago, dawei said:

I can hear the counter argument... so be like a child, as Laozi says, but what can a child really do?  It is not about being a child but child-like in simplicity.

Well, it's not just that - but about the archetypal desire to return to the "uncorrupted purity" and youthful energy (xiantian jing/yuan qi) of our "xiantian" source...

Like, compare the natural flexibility and raw ENERGY level of a healthy baby...vs a stiff, white-haired senior, burdened with calcified toxins.  Ever notice how kids run, and never walk?  While adults walk, and rarely run?  And, all that young energy level doesn't just manifest in activity, either...but also in immense, developmental and regenerative growth.  Fetuses grow in water...and are born composed of about 78% water.  Which then drops to 60% by adulthood.  I mean, after reaching adulthood, we are all basically slowly dehydrating, fossilizing, and decomposing...lol.

And, you can also extend this observation to all of life.  Like, look at a young sprout bursting out of its seed and up through the soil.  It is very soft and flexible, yet bursting with the same, fresh, newborn energy!

So, this was the type of energy and state of life that the Daoists sought to recapture in their cross-cultural search for ming/xiantian jing/"immortality."  Remember, no one ever searched for the "fountain of old age," lol!  No, they always searched for the "fountain of youth"...not the "drain of old age." 

 

And, the Daoists sought to combine both the "fountain of youth" with the "sagacity of old age"...

Edited April 12, 2018 by gendao