Why Follow Tao?

[Stosh]

From Terebess, Lin's translation and distilation

CH25

There is something formlessly created
Born before Heaven and Earth
So silent! So ethereal!
Independent and changeless
Circulating and ceaseless
It can be regarded as the mother of the world
I do not know its name
Identifying it, I call it "Tao"
Forced to describe it, I call it great
Great means passing
Passing means receding
Receding means returning
Therefore the Tao is great
Heaven is great
Earth is great
The sovereign is also great
There are four greats in the universe
And the sovereign occupies one of them
Humans follow the laws of Earth
Earth follows the laws of Heaven
Heaven follows the laws of Tao
Tao follows the laws of nature

 

There is something that is formless, shapeless and non-physical, and yet also complete and perfect. Whatever it is, this "thing" existed before the universe came into being.
How silent, tranquil and still! How ethereal, empty and boundless! It is completely independent and self-sufficient. Its nature is eternal and unchanging. Its functions circulate within every level of existence without ever stopping. Because it is the source of all creation, we can consider it to be the mother of all things.
I do not know its name; I do not even know that it has a name. In order to identify it, I reluctantly call it the arbitrary name "Tao." If I were forced to describe it, I would have to say it is great beyond compare. Being great, it is always in a state of transition. Being perpetually in motion, it seems to recede far away from us. Being far away, it returns again to us. This great circle is the nature of Tao.
Therefore, the Tao is great. Heaven and Earth, being manifestations of the Tao, are also great. A leader who manifests the Tao, and can serve as an example for the people, is also great. He or she occupies one of the four aspects of greatness.
The universe is an orchestrated symphony, where human beings follow the laws of the land in which they live. At a level above this, the Earth follows the laws of astronomy - the rules that govern the motions of heavenly bodies. The cosmos in turn follow the patterns of the Tao at a macroscopic level. Ultimately, the Tao itself follows natural laws, which arise from the Tao process. This underscores the self-sufficiency and self-completeness of the Tao.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Stosh

[Lost in Translation]

TTC chapter 41. It may or may not contain the words "follow Tao", depending on translation. It often says "follow the way", which in this context is arguably the same.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Lost in Translation

[dawei]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

The same thing keeps coming up, doesn't it?! What difference does it make whether your choices (whatever they happen to be) are or are not ultimately manifestations of Tao. In daily life you still have to make your own choices no matter how you wish to answer the metaphysical question of free will that's engendering all these ruminations.

 

There are ways of life to choose from, and it's up to you what you do. Maybe the process of making a choice is just another manifestation of Tao (as I think it is) and maybe not, but it's still you deliberating and deciding what you do. There is no escape from being responsible for your own choices.

 

I think chapters 18-19 show what happens when Dao (as natural order) is not followed... we end up with more social structures that define how to live. 

 

Then chapters 30 and 55 end with the same phrase that, this is called 'not Dao'...  which seems to suggest the hasty life comes to a quicker end (as opposed to a longer and more natural end).

 

So, while there are 'choices', my argument over the years is similar to a semi-joke a christian speaker once said about choices:  You can pick all you want but there is one choice you should be picking.  In the more Dao-based meaning, it would be the road of least resistance, least interference, least distinction, least quarreling, least [add in any chapter examples from Laozi].  

 

And the basis for that choosing is what?   The more one is aligned with Dao the more those choices also come naturally.

[Stosh]

Ok , again from Terebess , Lin's translation and distillation

 

41

Higher people hear of the Tao
They diligently practice it
Average people hear of the Tao
They sometimes keep it and sometimes lose it
Lower people hear of the Tao
They laugh loudly at it
If they do not laugh, it would not be the Tao
Therefore a proverb has the following:
The clear Tao appears unclear
The advancing Tao appears to retreat
The smooth Tao appears uneven
High virtue appears like a valley
Great integrity appears like disgrace
Encompassing virtue appears insufficient
Building virtue appears inactive
True substance appears inconstant
The great square has no corners
The great vessel is late in completion
The great music is imperceptible in sound
The great image has no form
The Tao is hidden and nameless
Yet it is only the Tao
That excels in giving and completing everything

But "not laughing" in itself is not sufficient to be called the Tao,
and therefore it is said:
The sparkling Tao seems dark
Advancing in the Tao seems like regression.
Settling into the Tao seems rough.
True virtue is like a valley.
The immaculate seems humble.
Extensive virtue seems insufficient.
Established virtue seems deceptive.
The face of reality seems to change.
The great square has no corners.
Great ability takes a long time to perfect.
Great sound is hard to hear.
The great form has no shape.
The Tao is hidden and nameless.
This is exactly why the Tao is good at developing and perfecting.

The true student hears of the Tao; h is diligent and practices it.
The average student hears of it; sometimes he appears to be attentive, then again he is inattentive.
The half hearted student hears of it; he loudly derides it. If it did not provoke ridicule it would not be worthy the name-Tao.
Again there are those whose only care is phraseology.
The brilliancy of the Tao is as obscurity; the advance of the Tao is as a retreat; the equality of the Tao is as inequality; the higher energy is as cosmic space; the greatest purity is as uncleanness; the widest virtue is as if insufficient; established virtue is as if furtive; the truest essence is as imperfection; the most perfect square is cornerless; the largest vessel is last completed; the loudest sound has fewest tones; the grandest conception is formless.
The Tao is concealed and nameless, yet it is the Tao alone which excels in imparting and completing.

[Stosh]

I personally choose chapter 44 as being directly explanatory.. 

Again from Terebess and Lin's T+D

 

44

Fame or the self, which is dearer?
The self or wealth, which is greater?
Gain or loss, which is more painful?
Thus excessive love must lead to great spending
Excessive hoarding must lead to heavy loss
Knowing contentment avoids disgrace
Knowing when to stop avoids danger
Thus one can endure indefinitely

 

Which do you hold more dear, fame or your true self?
Which do you value more, your true self or material possessions?
Which is more painful, gain or loss?
Therefore we always pay a great price for excessive love
And suffer deep loss for great accumulation.
Knowing what is enough, you will not be humiliated.
Knowing where to stop, you will not be imperiled
And can be long-lasting.
Gain or loss, which is worse?
Excessive love implies excessive outlay. Immoderate accumulation implies heavy loss.
Who knows contentment meets no shame. Who knows when to stop incurs no danger. Such long endure.

[Marblehead]

Yep.  If I don't follow the Way of Tao there is an excellent possibility that I won't last long.

 

[wandelaar]

2 hours ago, Starjumper said:

Hmm, it must be about time for someone to post the chapter which that phrase comes out of.

 

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Do you mean "following Tao"?

 

53 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Yes

 

A great example of a Taoist intervention. Acting on the right moment, with minimal effort, and standing back to let things unfold without attempting to taken any credit. Thanks!  Who said Taoism is impractical.

[Starjumper]

Yes it works sometimes.  This is the section that I was looking for here.

 

54 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Humans follow the laws of Earth
Earth follows the laws of Heaven
Heaven follows the laws of Tao
Tao follows the laws of nature

 

As we can see there is no choice in the matter, humans follow Tao, end of story.

 

I can see here that Lao Tzu or the translator made a mistake because Tao doesn't follow the laws of nature, Tao IS the laws of nature.

 

So what it's really saying here is that Humans follow nature ... in their own bumbling way, and there is no choice.  The problem is that the title asks 'Why follow Tao', but if there is no choice then the word 'why' does not apply, if it assumes an ability to choose, free will.  You could ask why humans follow Tao or nature though, if the concept of choice does not enter the picture.

[dawei]

52 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Yes it works sometimes.  This is the section that I was looking for here.

 

 

As we can see there is no choice in the matter, humans follow Tao, end of story.

 

I can see here that Lao Tzu or the translator made a mistake because Tao doesn't follow the laws of nature, Tao IS the laws of nature.

 

So what it's really saying here is that Humans follow nature ... in their own bumbling way, and there is no choice.  The problem is that the title asks 'Why follow Tao', but if there is no choice then the word 'why' does not apply, if it assumes an ability to choose, free will.  You could ask why humans follow Tao or nature though, if the concept of choice does not enter the picture.

 

I agree that these sets of lines do not really speak justice to the meaning; because the four chinese lines are parallel in structure most everyone tries to translate them in parallel and in the process they turn Tao upside down.    The few who don't hold to a parallel translation tend to get closer.   But here are my two most recent attempts:

 

人法地，
地法天，
天法道，
道法自然

humanity patterns [are] earth [patterns].

earth patterns [are] heaven [patterns]

heaven patterns [are] dao [patterns]

dao patterns [are] natural [patterns]

 

 

Humanity reflects earth

Earth reflects heaven

Heaven reflects Dao

Dao reflects naturally-arising

 

 

The bottom line is, this section is meant to be recursive... 

 

humanity reflects, earth, heaven, Dao, naturally-arising

[wandelaar]

59 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

You could ask why humans follow Tao or nature though, if the concept of choice does not enter the picture.

 

I also think 'free will' is an illusion, because people are part of nature and thus fall under nature's laws. But that doesn't take away the necessity of making choices in our daily life's. You may object to the term choosing because free choice is impossible in the absolute sense, but however you call it people continue to somehow go from "stages of not knowing what to do" to "stages of knowing what to do", and that process doesn't disappear because of the impossibility of free will. The openingsquestion of this topic: "Why Follow Tao?" is referring to this psychological process of going from "stages of not knowing what to do" to "stages of knowing what to do". The openingsquestion thus asks what reasons might play a role in individual decisions people make to follow or not follow a Taoist approach. Even when those decisions are not free in the absolute sense we can still legitimately ask which reasons might be expected to play a role in reaching such a decision.

[dawei]

17 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

I also think 'free will' is an illusion, because people are part of nature and thus fall under nature's laws. But that doesn't take away the necessity of making choices in our daily life's. You may object to the term choosing because free choice is impossible in the absolute sense, but however you call it people continue to somehow go from "stages of not knowing what to do" to "stages of knowing what to do", and that process doesn't disappear because of the impossibility of free will. The openingsquestion of this topic: "Why Follow Tao?" is referring to this psychological process of going from "stages of not knowing what to do" to "stages of knowing what to do". The openingsquestion thus asks what reasons might play a role in individual decisions people make to follow or not follow a Taoist approach. Even when those decisions are not free in the absolute sense we can still legitimately ask which reasons might be expected to play a role in reaching such a decision.

 

I am on the side that free will is an illusion but it is always hard to explain to those who hold it as their paramount free choice

 

I'll give another conundrum I faced...  

 

I found I could influence a certain outcome... please don't ask if that was the lottery !  

 

As I did it more and more... I began to wonder if I wasn't simply aware of the outcome before it was an outcome 

 

We often look to the past or present to decide a future course... what if the future course was the beacon of light shining through

 

[Lost in Translation]

15 minutes ago, dawei said:

We often look to the past or present to decide a future course... what if the future course was the beacon of light shining through

 

Brilliant! I am free to choose so I choose what will already happen!

[Stosh]

2 hours ago, Starjumper said:

Yes it works sometimes.  This is the section that I was looking for here.

 

 

As we can see there is no choice in the matter, humans follow Tao, end of story.

 

I can see here that Lao Tzu or the translator made a mistake because Tao doesn't follow the laws of nature, Tao IS the laws of nature.

 

So what it's really saying here is that Humans follow nature ... in their own bumbling way, and there is no choice.  The problem is that the title asks 'Why follow Tao', but if there is no choice then the word 'why' does not apply, if it assumes an ability to choose, free will.  You could ask why humans follow Tao or nature though, if the concept of choice does not enter the picture.

Yes I obey gravity , but that's not all I can do as a human , I can screw up,  be self destructive , invent, dream , and so forth - its what makes me special. 

Yea, as demi-gods we be , and can spin round toss up our kilt and exclaim "Feast yer eyes Tao ! ";)

Edited April 20, 2018 by Stosh

[wandelaar]

1 minute ago, Stosh said:

Yes I obey gravity , but that's not all I can do as a human , I can screw up,  be self destructive dream , and so forth - its what makes me special. 

 

Why do you think your mind is somehow beyond the laws of nature? Are you that special?

[Stosh]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

Why do you think your mind is somehow beyond the laws of nature? Are you that special?

Yep , believe in free will do I . 

 

( and from far back in the mysterious vacuum of space came the words  " We   are   not   amused. " )

 

Within the human mind , with its abstractions and inventions ,

there is a whole new set of potentials from which stuff can be made manifest , like phones and morality , taxes and song. 

.. Or songs about taxes sung on the phone

Edited April 20, 2018 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, dawei said:

The bottom line is, this section is meant to be recursive... 

 

humanity reflects, earth, heaven, Dao, naturally-arising

I still prefer:  Tao follows Tzujan.  (Self-Actualizing)

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

I also think 'free will' is an illusion, 

You have the free will to think that way.  Isn't that ironic?

 

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, dawei said:

 

I am on the side that free will is an illusion 

 

All free will choices must be done within the realm of possibilities.  Otherwise one is just pissing up a tree.

 

[Lost in Translation]

I think a duck is a duck is a duck.

[Marblehead]

4 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

I think a duck is a duck is a duck.

This is likely true unless it is a goose.

 

[wandelaar]

38 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

You have the free will to think that way.  Isn't that ironic?

There is not a shred of evidence that I (or you, or anybody) has "free will". The real irony is that even some Taoists seem to think that they as human beings are that special that the laws of nature don't apply to their process of decision making. That's hubris if you ask me.

Edited April 20, 2018 by wandelaar

[Lost in Translation]

I read once that tests have shown that the brain "prepares" to make a decision several seconds before one is typically aware consciously that they are deciding. It was postulated that what we think of as "making" a decision is more like "being informed of" the decision we already (unconsciously) made!

 

That's food for thought!

 

Here's a link to a similar study.

 

https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

 

 

[Stosh]

Ironically that still means a decision was made , that until the brain did it , was not .

 

[Marblehead]

28 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

There is not a shred of evidence that I (or you, or anybody) has "free will". The real irony is that even some Taoists seem to think that they as human beings are that special that the laws of nature don't apply to their process of decision making. That's hubris if you ask me.

But I didn't ask you.  Sorry.

 

You made the choice to quote me and then disagree with me.  I have made the choice to respond to that.  We both could have just let it go and have done nothing.  But no.  We made a choice.

 

Yes, you are special and unique.  There is not another person exactly like you.  Just like snow flakes.

 

I am not talking about anything beyond what is natural.  Even the lesser animals make choices.  Sure, their free will is more restricted but it is there just the same.  This applies to humans as well.  Some have more than do others because of the environment they were born into.

 

So the next time someone yells at you "Watch out!" just ignore them and see what happens.  (BTW  You had the free will to ignore them.)

 

[Stosh]

34 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

There is not a shred of evidence that I (or you, or anybody) has "free will". The real irony is that even some Taoists seem to think that they as human beings are that special that the laws of nature don't apply to their process of decision making. That's hubris if you ask me.

Pick up your hand.