Why Follow Tao?

[Daemon]

☮️

Edited October 5, 2018 by Daemon

[Marblehead]

10 minutes ago, Daemon said:

@Marblehead

 

I wasn't implying that you're a plagiarist. However, if you're an atheist, I assume that you're familiar with the Atheist's Wager?

 

Peace,

 

☮️

I knew that but I just wanted to let you know that if I have quoted someone I will mention who it is I am quoting.

 

I don't read Atheist literature.  I found that most are angry Atheists and I'm not one of those.  My non-beliefs allow me a much more simplified life.  And the physical realm keeps me rather busy.

 

 

[Daemon]

☮️

Edited October 5, 2018 by Daemon

[Marblehead]

14 minutes ago, Daemon said:

The Atheist's Wager isn't atheist literature, it's a logical argument, although it's based, in part, upon patently false religious and philosophical axioms.

 

☮️

You did good at enlightening me.  Most I was already aware of but couldn't reference it from my mind.  (Apparently it wasn't important enough for me to remember.)

 

No questions as to the "why" of the workings of God or Tao should be asked.  These questions have no answers.  

 

The "false axioms" are not present in my Philosophical Taoism.  Of course, I have roots in Nietzscheanism but he doesn't ask any of these unanswerable questions either.

 

Yes, I think that many, or perhaps most, angry Atheists have forsaken religious beliefs but haven't found a replacement for what they destroyed.  

 

Yes, fear is a powerful emotion (instinct).  It keeps the believers believing and the angry Atheists empty of spirituality.  For me, Taoism removed the need to ask questions which should not be asked.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by Marblehead

[Rickie]

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 9:28 PM, Lost in Translation said:

 

So why follow Tao?

You ask as if there is a choice.  Whether you recognize it or not you are following Tao.

[Lost in Translation]

1 minute ago, Rickie said:

On 4/15/2018 at 6:28 PM, Lost in Translation said:

 

So why follow Tao?

You ask as if there is a choice.  Whether you recognize it or not you are following Tao.

 

Thank you! Maybe I should rephrase: Why choose to follow Tao?

[Rickie]

5 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Thank you! Maybe I should rephrase: Why choose to follow Tao?

  You are Tao.  You have no choice.  Everything you do or don't do is Tao.  Relax be happy.  Live a good life.  

[Lost in Translation]

6 minutes ago, Rickie said:

16 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Thank you! Maybe I should rephrase: Why choose to follow Tao?

  You are Tao.  You have no choice.  Everything you do or don't do is Tao.  Relax be happy.  Live a good life.  

 

I disagree when you say "You are Tao."

 

I manifest from Tao. Tao nourishes me. Yes, I can say those things, but I am Tao? That does not feel right.

 

I welcome your clarification on the matter.

[Rickie]

9 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I disagree when you say "You are Tao."

 

I manifest from Tao. Tao nourishes me. Yes, I can say those things, but I am Tao? That does not feel right.

 

I welcome your clarification on the matter.

disagreeing is Tao :-) 

 

I suppose a fish could choose not to live in water.  A fish really doesn't have a choice.  

[Marblehead]

Rickie is hitting on the bare bones of it.  Although I prefer "we are aspects of Tao" rather than "we are Tao" but that's petty.

 

But if Rickie gets too close to suggesting that we have no choice, no free will, then that would be different.

 

And it is true, because of our learnings and experiences we generally have little choice as to how we will react to any given situation.

 

 

[wandelaar]

It's a trick of words. If everything one could possibly do was "following Tao" then 'Taoism' would become a hollow and meaningless term. Lao tse and Chuang tse could then just as well have kept their mouth shut. The trick works because there are (at least) two meaning to "following Tao". There is the metaphysical meaning where absolutely everything is a manifestation of Tao. And in this sense everything that happens (including our own choices) is "following Tao". But "following Tao" also has the meaning of following the way of life (the Tao) as promoted by Lao tse, Chuang tse etc. And in this last meaning it is surely possible  to not "follow Tao", because there actually are lots of people who don't follow the Tao (way) promoted by Lao tse, Chuang tse etc. So the whole reasoning on the supposed impossibility of not following the way of a Taoist falls apart, because it is built on illegally mixing up the two meanings of "following Tao". 

Edited April 17, 2018 by wandelaar

[Lost in Translation]

19 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

It's a trick of words.

 

We can see that words matter, and it's easy to get turned about because words can mean different things in different context.

 

I like where this is going.  Keep it up!

[Rickie]

30 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

It's a trick of words. If everything one could possibly do was "following Tao" then 'Taoism' would become a hollow and meaningless term. Lao tse and Chuang tse could then just as well have kept their mouth shut. The trick works because there are (at least) two meaning to "following Tao". There is the metaphysical meaning where absolutely everything is a manifestation of Tao. And in this sense everything that happens (including our own choices) is "following Tao". But "following Tao" also has the meaning of following the way of life (the Tao) as promoted by Lao tse, Chuang tse etc. And in this last meaning it is surely possible  to not "follow Tao", because there actually are lots of people who don't follow the Tao (way) promoted by Lao tse, Chuang tse etc. So the whole reasoning on the supposed impossibility of not following the way of a Taoist falls apart, because it is built on illegally mixing up the two meanings of "following Tao". 

 

No offence but I believe you're overthinking this a bit but hey I'm just a simple guy trying to live a simple life.  :-)

[Rickie]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Rickie is hitting on the bare bones of it.  Although I prefer "we are aspects of Tao" rather than "we are Tao" but that's petty.

 

But if Rickie gets too close to suggesting that we have no choice, no free will, then that would be different.

 

And it is true, because of our learnings and experiences we generally have little choice as to how we will react to any given situation.

 

 

 

I can't say for sure if the fish in water has free will but I believe I have control of my destiny, up to a point.  If I look from the perspective of the universe my choices (actions) are inconsequential but hell I may never know if I'm right or wrong so I don't  really care so long as I believe.....

[Lost in Translation]

29 minutes ago, Rickie said:

 

I can't say for sure if the fish in water has free will but I believe I have control of my destiny, up to a point.  If I look from the perspective of the universe my choices (actions) are inconsequential but hell I may never know if I'm right or wrong so I don't  really care so long as I believe.....

 

I have a very simple approach to life:

 

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and acts like a duck then it is a duck.

 

 

[wandelaar]

12 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

I have a very simple approach to life:

 

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and acts like a duck then it is a duck.

 

Then maybe you would like the approach of the Hellenistic sceptics? Just like Chuang tze they were quite sceptical about the possibility of knowing anything for certain, but nevertheless they were quite capable to continue living as a normal human being. For if our natural impulse is to react to the way things appear to be and there is no clearly superior alternative then it's unreasonable to force yourself to behave differently.

[Lost in Translation]

7 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

For if our natural impulse is to react to the way things appear to be and there is no clearly superior alternative then it's unreasonable to force yourself to behave differently.

 

But... ?

 

I sense there is more you wanted to say on this. Am I mistaken?

[wandelaar]

I also thought I had more to say. But that would go wildly off topic. So I wiped it out.

 

I think the ancient sceptics were right (not the postmodern variety). What more is there to say?

[Marblehead]

I actually agree with Wandelaar regarding there being two aspects of what we are talking about.

 

There is the objective that Rickie pointed out and the subjective that Wandelaar pointed out.

 

I live my life based on the subjective.  And no, it's not always the path of least resistance.  But it's the path that allows me to maintain my inner peace.

 

So we have choices.  Do we seek the path of the Sage or do we act like a straw dog and get trampled?

 

[Lost in Translation]

31 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I actually agree with Wandelaar regarding there being two aspects of what we are talking about.

 

There is the objective that Rickie pointed out and the subjective that Wandelaar pointed out.

 

And I think this is great! "Follow Tao" - such a simple idea, except it's not! It's wildly complicated, except when it actually is simple.

 

Words form the symbol of Yin/Yang. One contains the other, contains the other, contains the other... 

 

My faith is TDB is restored! Now let's all slum a bit in the Talk Trump thread. 

 

 

[Marblehead]

4 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

Now let's all slum a bit in the Talk Trump thread. 

 

No thanks.  I get emotional when I go there.

 

 

[Boundlesscostfairy]

I think your handle on things is The Tao..

 

So everything goes through you,

And everything goes back into you,

Hence ego  and hence handle..

[Daemon]

☮️

Edited October 5, 2018 by Daemon

[Stosh]

People look to pages because they don't think their own experiences have led them to the most favorable state in the first place.

Theres no reason to believe that every thing you learn from past experiences is going to lend itself gainfully to present and future events. 

[Daemon]

☮️

Edited October 5, 2018 by Daemon