Why Follow Tao?

[Stosh]

11 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

There is a huge misunderstanding here. I thought by "they" you meant the postmodernists, and that's why I said further discussion would be a waste of time. But of course I want to discuss the way of Lao tse and Chuang tse! That's why I joint this forum. So if you want to tell me what you think Lao tse and Chuang tse were up to, please do so.

It reads to me , that you are not , convicted about what they were actually advocating, and that you somehow, have rendered that it must then be meaningless. Or what you have distilled,  is that it must be meaningless. 

You are at center stage , whaddaya got? 

[Michael Sternbach]

31 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

There is a huge misunderstanding here. I thought by "they" you meant the postmodernists, and that's why I said further discussion would be a waste of time. But of course I want to discuss the way of Lao tse and Chuang tse! That's why I joint this forum. So if you want to tell me what you think Lao tse and Chuang tse were up to, please do so.

 

What about Sun tse? (Yes, Marbles, I am going to finish our treatment of the Art of War on that thread, I am just taking an awful lot of time. )

 

I just had a friendly disagreement (with a friend) if Sun tse was actually a Daoist. I say yes, for the AoW is fully based on Daoist principles. But I realize that Sun tse's meticulous strategic planning seems at odds with Chuang tse's spontaneous way of life.

 

Then again, maybe Chuang tse was so attuned to the Dao that everything always fell in place for him and he just didn't need to do any planning?

Edited April 19, 2018 by Michael Sternbach

[wandelaar]

33 minutes ago, Stosh said:

It reads to me , that you are not , convicted about what they were actually advocating, and that you somehow, have rendered that it must then be meaningless. Or what you have distilled,  is that it must be meaningless. 

You are at center stage , whaddaya got? 

 

No - I don't think it was meaningless. I am collecting the basic principles of a Taoist approach (as I see it) in the topic:

So it isn't completely beyond words. But I am not yet in a position to capture the approach in a few words, and that might very well prove impossible. We will see. I'm still exploring the Way.

 

@ Michael Sternbach

 

Sun tse (and Lieh tse also) might be added later. One thing at a time.

 

Edited April 19, 2018 by wandelaar

[Lost in Translation]

@Stosh @wandelaar 

 

As regards Chuang Tzu, I always return to the story of the ox butcher. He used the same knife for twenty years and never sharpened it, yet it cut like it was brand new. A patron noticed the knife, how it cut so well. Chuang Tzu said that an average butcher sliced the meat and tendon. His knife needed to be sharpened every few weeks. A novice butcher hacked at bone. His knife needed to be sharpened every day. The butcher in this story told how he would first feel the Ox, find the joints, and the position of the bones. Then he would slip his knife through the spaces between the bones. Because the knife never touched bone or tendon, it never met resistance, and thus it never needed to be sharpened.

 

There is a lot of wisdom in this simple tale.

[Stosh]

30 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

No - I don't think it was meaningless. I am collecting the basic principles of a Taoist approach (as I see it) in the topic:

So it isn't completely beyond words. But I am not yet in a position to capture the approach in a few words, and that might very well prove impossible. We will see. I'm still exploring the Way.

 

@ Michael Sternbach

 

Sun tse (and Lieh tse also) might be added later. One thing at a time.

 

I went through that entire thread this is all I could render... 

Sounds crazy, but the idea is to let the unconscious mind play with the discovered principles as it sees fit, but only after the rational mind has done all it could in figuring out what the principles actually are.

 

This is what you think they advocated ? This is so far away from any the responses I thought might be put forward , I really just don't know what to say, other than I hugely disagree and that perhaps its too soon to see common ground. 

Carry on. 

 

 

[wandelaar]

I think the story of the ox butcher is crucial in (at least) four respects:

 

1. Unlearning has to be preceded by (possibly years of) learning. One does not automatically know the anatomy of an ox.

 

2. Real mastership arrives only then when the things you learned have become second nature and are no longer consciously used (they have to be "forgotten").

 

3. Using empty spaces is just as important as using solid things.

 

4. Let the (easy) opportunities the situation offers be your guide. 

[Stosh]

22 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

@Stosh @wandelaar 

 

As regards Chuang Tzu, I always return to the story of the ox butcher. He used the same knife for twenty years and never sharpened it, yet it cut like it was brand new. A patron noticed the knife, how it cut so well. Chuang Tzu said that an average butcher sliced the meat and tendon. His knife needed to be sharpened every few weeks. A novice butcher hacked at bone. His knife needed to be sharpened every day. The butcher in this story told how he would first feel the Ox, find the joints, and the position of the bones. Then he would slip his knife through the spaces between the bones. Because the knife never touched bone or tendon, it never met resistance, and thus it never needed to be sharpened.

 

There is a lot of wisdom in this simple tale.

While I see the point, ( no pun intended) , that's not actually how one butchers a cow, no knife bends like that, and this butcher greatly diminishes his options by always needing to meet no resistance. 

[Lost in Translation]

2 minutes ago, Stosh said:

30 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

@Stosh @wandelaar 

 

As regards Chuang Tzu, I always return to the story of the ox butcher. He used the same knife for twenty years and never sharpened it, yet it cut like it was brand new. A patron noticed the knife, how it cut so well. Chuang Tzu said that an average butcher sliced the meat and tendon. His knife needed to be sharpened every few weeks. A novice butcher hacked at bone. His knife needed to be sharpened every day. The butcher in this story told how he would first feel the Ox, find the joints, and the position of the bones. Then he would slip his knife through the spaces between the bones. Because the knife never touched bone or tendon, it never met resistance, and thus it never needed to be sharpened.

 

There is a lot of wisdom in this simple tale.

While I see the point, ( no pun intended) , that's not actually how one butchers a cow, no knife bends like that, and this butcher greatly diminishes his options by always needing to meet no resistance. 

 

It's a story about the Tao, not a manual on how to butcher animals. 

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

It's a story about the Tao, not a manual on how to butcher animals. 

The was a  man in the town of Dun,

and wherever he would go he would run ,

but he couldn't go up, and wouldn't go down ,

so he circled around in the sun.  

Edited April 19, 2018 by Stosh

[wandelaar]

4 minutes ago, Stosh said:

While I see the point, ( no pun intended) , that's not actually how one butchers a cow, no knife bends like that, and this butcher greatly diminishes his options by always needing to meet no resistance. 

 

There is no Way that does not somehow diminishes one's options. The whole idea of choosing a Way is that you (perhaps temporarily) ignore other Ways. A Way is defined as much by the road itself as by the ways not taken. No doubt the butcher would accept some resistance in case of emergency. So the story presents an idealized picture of the preferred Taoist approach to get things done.

[Stosh]

52 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

There is no Way that does not somehow diminishes one's options. The whole idea of choosing a Way is that you (perhaps temporarily) ignore other Ways. A Way is defined as much by the road itself as by the ways not taken. No doubt the butcher would accept some resistance in case of emergency. So the story presents an idealized picture of the preferred Taoist approach to get things done.

I don't care for idealized analogies, it inherently says the analogy will fail and you have to abandon the philosophy being presented. 

Do the easy thing, and when you meet resistance , screw the philosophy :  would mean the philosophy is of no use. 

Don't all the other butchers try to miss the bones? 

I know when I cut up a chicken, or fish , the knife is going to hit hard parts every time. 

This thread is on why one should 'follow' Tao, so far this story suggests one shouldn't plan to,  unless they live on 'Big Rock Candy Mountain' . 

[Lost in Translation]

As long as we're talking about carving Oxen...

 

3.2 The tale of Cook Ding

 

Cook Ding was carving an ox carcass for Lord Wenhui. With each touch of his hand, heave of his shoulder, step of his feet, thrust of his knee – whop! whish! – he wielded his knife with a whoosh, and every move was in rhythm. It was as though he were performing the Dance of the Mulberry Grove or keeping to the beat of the Constant Source music.

 

“Ah, marvelous!” said Lord Wenhui. “Surely this is the acme of skill!” Cook Ding laid down his knife and replied, “What your servant loves, my lord, is the Dao, and that is a step beyond skill.

 

“At the beginning, when I first began carving up oxen, all I could see was the whole carcass. After three years I could no longer see the carcass whole, and now I meet it with my spirit and don’t look with my eyes. Perception and understanding cease and spirit moves as it will. I follow the natural form: slicing the major joints I guide the knife through the big hollows, and by conforming to the inherent contours, no vessels or tendons or tangles of sinews – much less the big bones – block my blade in the least.

 

“A good cook changes his knife once a year, but this is mere slicing. An ordinary cook changes his knife once a month, because he hacks. I’ve been using this knife now for nineteen years; it has carved thousands of oxen, yet the blade is as sharp as one fresh off the grindstone. You see, there are gaps between these joints, but the blade edge has no thickness. If a knife with no thickness moves into a gap, then it’s wide as need be and the blade wanders freely with plenty of leeway. That’s why after nineteen years the blade of my knife is as sharp as one fresh off the grindstone.

 

“But nevertheless, whenever a tangled knot lies ahead, I spot the challenge and on the alert I focus my sight and slow down my hand – then I flick the blade with the slightest of moves, and before you know it the carcass has fallen apart like earth crumbling to the ground. I stand with knife raised and face all four directions in turn, prancing in place with complete satisfaction. Then I wipe off the knife and put it away.”

 

“How fine!” said Lord Wenhui. “Listening to the words of Cook Ding, I have learned how to nurture life!”

 

http://www.indiana.edu/~p374/Zhuangzi.pdf

 

[Stosh]

Same story basically, and same suspension of disbelief is required of tje reader.

So lemme highlight some things already exposed. 

The sage of this is not royalty.

his actions are what determines his success. 

This sage is an idealized figure rather than a realistic one .

He has his joy because he does his work well and doesnt make things any harder than it has to be. 

One need not be of this amazing facility, all one would have to do is put forth more effort sharpen the blade. 

Its not luck he learned it.

So he learned to avoid the bones as much as he could, overcome difficulties, and take that which came of it . 

So none of this is mystical. 

He didnt rely on a faultless rule magically effective that one can just FOLLOW. 

Tao here suggests some effective attitudes rather than sit around doing nothing waiting for manna from heaven..

And the mattering of what tao has to say is that he does his thing , does it well, has peace and reward just playing his humble role as best he can. 

 

Wise stuff , not pie in the sky, after all.

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

Wise stuff , not pie in the sky, after all.

 

The essence of Taoism. Definitely not pie in the sky.

 

Oh, wait - what about that spiritual embryo thing...?

 

Never mind, that's a different thread. ;-D

[Mig]

On 4/17/2018 at 8:54 AM, Rickie said:

disagreeing is Tao :-) 

 

I suppose a fish could choose not to live in water.  A fish really doesn't have a choice.  

A fish? really, what do we know a fish make rational choices to live in or out of the water, we human have the mental capacity to pretend making choices based on the conditions that are presented to us, some stay some leave a situation, fish or other animal live to survive and I guess have no choice. Why humanize animals?

[Mig]

On 4/17/2018 at 12:18 PM, Lost in Translation said:

 

I have a very simple approach to life:

 

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and acts like a duck then it is a duck.

 

 

What is simple approach to life? What's simple? In the world we live in I have hard time to say to live simply, we live in societies and ain't nothing simple wherever I have lived in the Far East, Europe and Americas.

[Lost in Translation]

14 minutes ago, Mig said:

What is simple approach to life? What's simple? In the world we live in I have hard time to say to live simply, we live in societies and ain't nothing simple wherever I have lived in the Far East, Europe and Americas.

 

I respect your words, but if you live in a society with Internet access and the freedom to browse TDB then complexity is what you choose to make it.

 

When you have decided that you have suffered enough then you can choose simplicity. It's all up to you.

[Boundlesscostfairy]

Can you not help but follow Tao..in everything that you do?

[Marblehead]

23 minutes ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

Can you not help but follow Tao..in everything that you do?

That is the question, isn't it?  Can the Earth not "quake"?  Can the volcano not erupt?

 

[Stosh]

8 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

The essence of Taoism. Definitely not pie in the sky.

 

Oh, wait - what about that spiritual embryo thing...?

 

Never mind, that's a different thread. ;-D

   Spiritual embryo Huh?

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

Can you not help but follow Tao..in everything that you do?

No , tao , or natural order is not in everything humans do. Number one, is that we can be self destructive., come to crazy unsubstantiated conclusions, dream of things that don't exist , ignore our real situation , and operate as if we were in some other world. We heavily use ,and often rely on, abstractions which may or may not be true.

It allows us to dominate the earth collectively , but at the same time, brings a lot of headache individually. 

 

 

 

[wandelaar]

2 hours ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

Can you not help but follow Tao..in everything that you do?

 

The same thing keeps coming up, doesn't it?! What difference does it make whether your choices (whatever they happen to be) are or are not ultimately manifestations of Tao. In daily life you still have to make your own choices no matter how you wish to answer the metaphysical question of free will that's engendering all these ruminations.

 

There are ways of life to choose from, and it's up to you what you do. Maybe the process of making a choice is just another manifestation of Tao (as I think it is) and maybe not, but it's still you deliberating and deciding what you do. There is no escape from being responsible for your own choices.

 

And indeed as Stosh wrote: "we can be self destructive., come to crazy unsubstantiated conclusions, dream of things that don't exist , ignore our real situation , and operate as if we were in some other world. We heavily use ,and often rely on, abstractions which may or may not be true." This may be called in a non-metaphysical, subjective sense "not following Tao". The question whether we follow Tao in this non-metaphysical, subjective sense is completely distinct from the question whether we can refuse to follow Tao in the metaphysical sense. Mixing up those two meanings leads to endless confusion.

[Starjumper]

Hmm, it must be about time for someone to post the chapter which that phrase comes out of.

[wandelaar]

Do you mean "following Tao"?

[Starjumper]

Yes