Flow, being "in the zone," wu wei, and samadhi

[blackfence]

How do you understand the relationships between these terms?

 

Which of these terms expresses that state where one is performing at an incredibly high level -- and yet it's effortless?

 

And what do you think it takes to get to that state?

Edited April 18, 2018 by blackfence

[Lost in Translation]

I see "flow" and being "in the zone" as synonymous. Both describe the state one is in while performing some action. For example, "the race car driver is in the zone", or "the athlete is flowing through the match". There's really no description of intention here. One could be in the zone or experiencing flow completely by chance.

 

Wu Wei, on the other hand, is one-hundred percent about intention. One consciously intends to "do" non-action. I know, that sounds weird. For example, a master of hand-to-hand combat learns to overpower his opponent using the least amount of energy possible by reducing his movements to only those essential to get the job done. He adopts Wu Wei into his technique. Or a leader adopts Wu Wei into his discipline by letting his subordinates do the work and giving guidance and direction only as needed to maintain the proper course.

 

Samadhi relates to a destination and a state of being. It is a goal, something one achieves. But upon achieving it morphs into a state of being that, ironically, no longer values goal based living. For example, the Zen master, after years of hardship finally achieves Samadhi only to realize that he already had Samadhi before he started upon his journey.

 

How does this relate to what you were thinking?

[EmeraldHead]

Absorption of mind. Focusing of the subconscious.

 

To get there takes cultivation. The opposite is a crippled autistic person. They're the anti-flow.

[doc benway]

18 hours ago, blackfence said:

How do you understand the relationships between these terms?

 

They're just terms, labels upon which we can project our interpretations based on our conditioning  and bias.

 

18 hours ago, blackfence said:

 

Which of these terms expresses that state where one is performing at an incredibly high level -- and yet it's effortless?

 

All of them can represent that state, or none, depending on our perspective.

 

18 hours ago, blackfence said:

 

And what do you think it takes to get to that state?

 

Getting to that state requires that we drop our identification to thought, feeling, labels, ... to all transitory states and experience.

It requires that we let go of all effort. No more following the past, anticipating the future, or changing the present moment.

If we are able to do that successfully, we are able to connect to a much deeper and pervasive state of being which is the source of all creativity.

[blackfence]

20 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

I see "flow" and being "in the zone" as synonymous. Both describe the state one is in while performing some action. For example, "the race car driver is in the zone", or "the athlete is flowing through the match". There's really no description of intention here. One could be in the zone or experiencing flow completely by chance.

 

Wu Wei, on the other hand, is one-hundred percent about intention. One consciously intends to "do" non-action. I know, that sounds weird. For example, a master of hand-to-hand combat learns to overpower his opponent using the least amount of energy possible by reducing his movements to only those essential to get the job done. He adopts Wu Wei into his technique. Or a leader adopts Wu Wei into his discipline by letting his subordinates do the work and giving guidance and direction only as needed to maintain the proper course.

 

Samadhi relates to a destination and a state of being. It is a goal, something one achieves. But upon achieving it morphs into a state of being that, ironically, no longer values goal based living. For example, the Zen master, after years of hardship finally achieves Samadhi only to realize that he already had Samadhi before he started upon his journey.

 

How does this relate to what you were thinking?

Very interesting! Do you think wu wei leads to a state of flow/the zone, though? How, to you, does one enter the zone? And how does it happen by chance?

 

It seems to me that most well-trained athletes, performers, and so on all try to minimize excessive movements. The philosopher William James talked about how when a child first learns to play the piano, he plays with his whole body. Eventually, learned to use less and less of it, and then finally just the hands. And presumably a trained pianist uses just the parts of the hands that are most relevant for the musical passage.

 

And again, how does samadhi relate to flow? Do you think one who attains samadhi gains automatic flow in everything?

[blackfence]

3 hours ago, steve said:

Getting to that state requires that we drop our identification to thought, feeling, labels, ... to all transitory states and experience.

It requires that we let go of all effort. No more following the past, anticipating the future, or changing the present moment.

If we are able to do that successfully, we are able to connect to a much deeper and pervasive state of being which is the source of all creativity.

So why does getting in the zone happen to athletes, performers, and other creative types -- often people who have never heard of dropping identification? There is a large psychological literature on certain conditions that seem to foster flow -- challenges poised at the right level to push someone's skills, but not too much. Clear goals and feedback. And so on.

 

And being in the zone does seem to require prior training in the skill. It's not as if someone who's never played the piano, and who is not worrying about the past/future, suddenly can come up and play a Beethoven piano sonata without hesitation.

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, blackfence said:

So why does getting in the zone happen to athletes, performers, and other creative types -- often people who have never heard of dropping identification? There is a large psychological literature on certain conditions that seem to foster flow -- challenges poised at the right level to push someone's skills, but not too much. Clear goals and feedback. And so on.

 

I suspect it is because that they achieve that state naturally, through their commitment and full immersion in their activity.

They may not think about identification but if the intellect creeps in, if they disconnect, they lose that edge.

Zhuangzi's parable about the archer speaks to that quite well.

 

When an archer is shooting for fun
He has all his skill.

If he shoots for a brass buckle
He is already nervous.

If he shoots for a prize of gold
He goes blind

Or sees two targets –
He is out of his mind.

His skill has not changed,
But the prize divides him.

He cares
He thinks more of winning
Than of shooting –
And the need to win
Drains him of power.

~Chuang Tzu

 

I experienced it long before any meditative or spiritual training.

It can happen in any number of circumstances, for me it was mostly in music (both playing and listening) and martial arts practice.

 

1 hour ago, blackfence said:

 

And being in the zone does seem to require prior training in the skill. It's not as if someone who's never played the piano, and who is not worrying about the past/future, suddenly can come up and play a Beethoven piano sonata without hesitation.

 

I think the level of familiarity with the activity is one way to allow us to achieve that mental state.

It can take the place of the spiritual perspective I referred to. 

However, one doesn't have to exhibit mastery of a skill to be in the zone.

A child can be fully "in the zone" while playing with a toy.

Of course, skill sets are needed to play Beethoven but one can be in the zone beating on a drum for the first time in their life in a drum circle. The zone is the internal connection, not the external product, IMO. The external product is a side effect.

 

[johndoe2012]

The few times I have experienced flow it seemed self disappeared for a while and things became more spontaneous. 

 

However I think this is different than the full recognition of rigpa which is even more expansive and center-less and has the quality of lightness. All in my experience. 

[silent thunder]

I have been experiencing a pull to describe my Sammadhi experience in words again.  So here's the quick and dirty version.

 

About 15 years ago now.

 

It happened while sketching.  Spontaneous expansion of self.  I'd been hanging out for a half hour or so, had just roughed in the outer lines of the main courtyard at the Getty Museum complex.  I got lost in the act of sketching and in observing.  Or rather than lost, I expanded into it.

 

It was a two stage shift out of subjective awareness into encompassing the entire multi building complex of the Getty (something like 7 buildings spread over several acres, along with a swath of the surrounding hillside overlooking Santa Monica Bay and Downtown LA. 

 

The first step was while intently studying the curve of a balcony, to try and really get the lines just right in relation to the background... my focus suddenly shifted from being aware of and looking intently at the form of the balcony to seeing the shape of the space encompassing the forms...

 

a shift:  not a flip but a dissolve/sideways

 

the way I normally look at forms became how I looked at the space around all forms.

and then stage two...  expansion.

 

awareness was simply the entirety of the space of the whole hillside...  and the forms were as the space and the space was as form and they were me and I them...

 

one flowing awareness so expansive and accute... utterly intimate.

 

I could feel the shape of the space in the keyholes inside of the doors in the gallery building's entrances. 

 

the grass on the hillside, the wind blowing was me

 

my very essence, the form, the emptiness... both... as intimate and familiar as my own body in this chair now...

and the kicker looking back on it... the form and the emptiness had the same consistency.

form and emptiness... the exact same essence

 

space and form equally alive

 

beingness

 

and love, it was just love all the way down and all the way up

as my friend rene always says... both same time...

all the way out and all the way in

same same

 

one fluid beingness

[Boundlesscostfairy]

Flow is like uninterrupted action;

 

The zone is a state of focus...

 

Samadhi..is perfect object meditation..

[voidisyinyang]

On 4/18/2018 at 12:33 PM, blackfence said:

How do you understand the relationships between these terms?

 

Which of these terms expresses that state where one is performing at an incredibly high level -- and yet it's effortless?

 

And what do you think it takes to get to that state?

 

Dr. Stuart Hameroff has a great research paper on the quantum biology of being in the zone - and he says that precognition is real while being in the zone.

 

 

Here is a new lecture by a quantum biology professor in Canada - he does excellent research.

 

So what Hameroff says is when the adrenaline increases then your brain processes information at a faster rate and so external perception of time appears to slow down - but in fact you are perceiving things faster then normal spacetime perception. Also you have stronger bliss while in the state.

 

Tuszynski links this to then increased serotonin levels with the lecithin - so increased vagus nerve activation.

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

On 18.4.2018 at 7:33 PM, blackfence said:

How do you understand the relationships between these terms?

 

Those terms are referring to pretty much the same state in my view.

 

On 18.4.2018 at 7:33 PM, blackfence said:

Which of these terms expresses that state where one is performing at an incredibly high level -- and yet it's effortless?

 

Wu wei would be the most exact equivalent.

 

On 18.4.2018 at 7:33 PM, blackfence said:

And what do you think it takes to get to that state?

 

Easiest to do with an activity you resonate with, performed in an environment you enjoy - at least initially. Eventually, you may be able to apply that state of mind to most or all of your activities.

 

Various kinds of meditation (i.e. Zen style and meditative martial arts practice) can help you achieve it too. As well as reading books on the topic.