Zoroastrianism

[Marblehead]

Last night while my internet service was down I was going through some of my text files and wandered upon my files regarding Zoroastrianism.

 

This morning it was still on my mind so I thought there must be a reason for that.

 

I have determined that the reason is that Zoroastrianism has been mentioned here by myself as well as a few others.

 

Perhaps there is enough interest to have a random discussion of this religion.

 

I just looked at Wikipedia's entry regarding the religion, found it to be accurate based on other writings I have viewed regarding it so I will start the discussion (maybe eventually a study) with that Wiki article.

 

Although I would like this to be a random discussion I, at the same time, will try to establish a flow for the various discussions in order to give a fair hearing to the religion.

 

[Marblehead]

The following is an edited version of the Wikipedia article found at:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/zoroastrianism

 

Zoroastrianism, or more natively Mazdayasna, is one of the world's oldest extant religions, "combining a cosmogonic dualism and eschatological monotheism in a manner unique  among the major religions of the world".  Ascribed to the teachings of the Iranian-speaking prophet Zoroaster (or Zarathustra), it exalts a deity of wisdom, Ahura Mazda (Wise Lord), as its Supreme Being.  Major features of Zoroastrianism, such as messianism, judgment after death, heaven and hell, and free will have, some believe, influenced other religious systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Christianity, and Islam.

With possible roots dating back to the second millennium BCE, Zoroastrianism enters recorded history in the 5th-century BCE.  Along with a Mithraic Median prototype and a Zurvanist Sassanid successor, it served as the state religion of the pre-Islamic Iranian empires for more than a millennium, from around 600 BCE to 650 CE.

The most important texts of the religion are those of the Avesta, which includes the writings of Zoroaster known as the Gathas, enigmatic poems that define the religion's precepts, and the Yasna, the scripture.  The full name by which Zoroaster addressed the deity is: Ahura, The Lord Creator, and Mazda, Supremely Wise.  Zoroaster proclaimed that there is only one God, the singularly creative and sustaining force of the Universe, and that human beings are given a right of choice.  Because of cause and effect, they are responsible for the consequences of their choices. The contesting force to Ahura Mazda was called Angra Mainyu, or angry spirit.  Post-Zoroastrian scripture introduced the concept of Ahriman, the Devil, which was effectively a personification of Angra Mainyu.

Zoroastrianism's creator Ahura Mazda, through the Spenta Mainyu (Good Spirit, "Bounteous Immortals") is an all-good "father" of Asha (Truth, "order, justice"), in opposition to Druj ("falsehood, deceit") and no evil originates from "him".  "He" and his works are evident to humanity through the six primary Amesha Spentas and the host of other Yazatas, through whom worship of Mazda is ultimately directed. Spenta Mainyu adjoined unto "truth", oppose the Spirit's opposite, Angra Mainyu and its forces born of Akəm Manah ("evil thinking").

In Zoroastrianism, the purpose in life is to "be among those who renew the world...to make the world progress towards perfection".

Its basic maxims include:

Humata, Hukhta, Huvarshta, which mean:  Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds.

There is only one path and that is the path of Truth.

Do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, and then all beneficial rewards will come to you also.

 

[moment]

Please understand, this is very much generalities to start dialog. I am hoping that those much more learned will now start educating me.

	Buddhism	Zoroastrianism
Place of worship	Buddhist monasteries, temples, shrines.	Dar-e Mehr (Persian) or Agiyari (Gujarati) or Fire temple
Practices	Practices of the Threefold Training: Virtue, Concentration, and Wisdom, a.k.a the Noble Eightfold Path.	Fire is used in Zoroastrian worship? Zoroastrians also pray 5 times a day.
Place of origin	Indian Subcontinent	Persia (Iran)
Goal of religion	To attain enlightenment and be released from the cycle of rebirth and death, thus attaining Nirvana.	To serve God, by good deeds towards others. To acquire and cultivate divine attributes, particularly “ good mind and righteousness; to elevate themselves in harmony with God and to listen to God’s guiding voice within them.
Belief of God	The idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator is rejected by Buddhists. The Buddha himself refuted the theistic argument that the universe was created by a self-conscious, personal God.	One main God.
Use of statues and pictures	Common	Permitted, there are several drawings regarding Prophet Zoroaster and symbolic images of God (Ahura Mazda).
Followers	Buddhists	Zoroastrians.
Founder	Gautama Buddha (born as Prince Siddhartha)	Zarathustra Haechataspa Spitama or Zoroaster (Greek) or Zartosht (Parsi)
Means of Salvation	Following the Noble Eightfold Path.	Good thoughts, good words, and good deeds.
Scriptures	Tripitaka	The Zend Avesta.
Human Nature	Ignorance, as all sentient beings. In the Buddhist texts, it is seen that when Gautama, after his awakening, was asked whether he was a normal human being, he replied, "No".	equal ability to do good or evil.
Literal Meaning	Buddhists are those who follow the teachings of the Buddha in order to become like the Buddha.	Follower of Zoroaster.
Life after death	Rebirth is one of the central beliefs of Buddhism. We are in an endless cycle of birth, death and re-birth, which can only be broken by attaining nirvana. Attaining nirvana is the only way to escape suffering permanently.	Eternal life in Heaven, or in Hell.
Population	300-350 million.	Approx. 100,000 Zoroastrians in the world.
Time of origin	2,500 years ago, circa 563 B.C.E. (Before Common Era)	600 B.C.E.
Concept of Deity	Subject to debate	Zoroaster proclaimed that all of the Iranian daevas were bad spirits and deserved no worship. These "bad" spirits were created by Angra Mainyu, the hostile and evil spirit. The existence of Angra Mainyu was the source of all sin and misery in the universe. Zoroaster claimed that Ahura Mazda was not an omnipotent God, but used the aid of humans in the cosmic struggle against Angra Mainyu. Nonetheless, Ahura Mazda is Angra Mainyu's superior, not his equal.

Edited April 19, 2018 by moment

[Lost in Translation]

7 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Iranian-speaking prophet Zoroaster (or Zarathustra)

 

I did not know that Zoroaster and Zarathustra were the same person. 

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Marblehead said:

The following is an edited version of the Wikipedia article found at:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/zoroastrianism

 

Zoroastrianism, or more natively Mazdayasna, is one of the world's oldest extant religions, "combining a cosmogonic dualism and eschatological monotheism in a manner unique  among the major religions of the world".  Ascribed to the teachings of the Iranian-speaking prophet Zoroaster (or Zarathustra), it exalts a deity of wisdom, Ahura Mazda (Wise Lord), as its Supreme Being.  Major features of Zoroastrianism, such as messianism, judgment after death, heaven and hell, and free will have, some believe, influenced other religious systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Christianity, and Islam.

With possible roots dating back to the second millennium BCE, Zoroastrianism enters recorded history in the 5th-century BCE.  Along with a Mithraic Median prototype and a Zurvanist Sassanid successor, it served as the state religion of the pre-Islamic Iranian empires for more than a millennium, from around 600 BCE to 650 CE.

The most important texts of the religion are those of the Avesta, which includes the writings of Zoroaster known as the Gathas, enigmatic poems that define the religion's precepts, and the Yasna, the scripture.  The full name by which Zoroaster addressed the deity is: Ahura, The Lord Creator, and Mazda, Supremely Wise.  Zoroaster proclaimed that there is only one God, the singularly creative and sustaining force of the Universe, and that human beings are given a right of choice.  Because of cause and effect, they are responsible for the consequences of their choices. The contesting force to Ahura Mazda was called Angra Mainyu, or angry spirit.  Post-Zoroastrian scripture introduced the concept of Ahriman, the Devil, which was effectively a personification of Angra Mainyu.

Zoroastrianism's creator Ahura Mazda, through the Spenta Mainyu (Good Spirit, "Bounteous Immortals") is an all-good "father" of Asha (Truth, "order, justice"), in opposition to Druj ("falsehood, deceit") and no evil originates from "him".  "He" and his works are evident to humanity through the six primary Amesha Spentas and the host of other Yazatas, through whom worship of Mazda is ultimately directed. Spenta Mainyu adjoined unto "truth", oppose the Spirit's opposite, Angra Mainyu and its forces born of Akəm Manah ("evil thinking").

In Zoroastrianism, the purpose in life is to "be among those who renew the world...to make the world progress towards perfection".

Its basic maxims include:

Humata, Hukhta, Huvarshta, which mean:  Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds.

There is only one path and that is the path of Truth.

Do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, and then all beneficial rewards will come to you also.

 

 

     ... you probably knew I would contribute here .

 

My most recent research has been with Media (place) and Medians . They had a lot of 'native Iranian' stuff that was incorporated into Zoroastrianism, like elements of the early 'Aryan' religions ; worship and offerings to the forces of nature, water and especially fire. They knew the value of offerings and sacrifice (yasna)  but also its detrimental effect in certain areas  (eg, they banned the traditional Aryan Horse sacrifice and the  bull sacrifice). 

 

One of their main principles I like is their view on the purpose of life ..... is it to 'fear God'  or even obey his laws , is to make more Zoroastrians, is it to go to heaven ?  Nope ... it is  primarily 'to have a good life and enjoy it .

 

How is this to be achieved ?  By living a certain way, doing certain actions and avoiding others thus building a healthy psychology .  Its a great system and has the roots in it of many later developed systems . It has a great system of 'psychic anatomy', which I hope to highlight n a latter post .

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, moment said:

Please understand, this is very much generalities to start dialog. I am hoping that those much more learned will now start educating me.

	Buddhism	Zoroastrianism
Place of worship	Buddhist monasteries, temples, shrines.	Dar-e Mehr (Persian) or Agiyari (Gujarati) or Fire temple
Practices	Practices of the Threefold Training: Virtue, Concentration, and Wisdom, a.k.a the Noble Eightfold Path.	Fire is used in Zoroastrian worship? Zoroastrians also pray 5 times a day.
Place of origin	Indian Subcontinent	Persia (Iran)
Goal of religion	To attain enlightenment and be released from the cycle of rebirth and death, thus attaining Nirvana.	To serve God, by good deeds towards others. To acquire and cultivate divine attributes, particularly “ good mind and righteousness; to elevate themselves in harmony with God and to listen to God’s guiding voice within them.
Belief of God	The idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator is rejected by Buddhists. The Buddha himself refuted the theistic argument that the universe was created by a self-conscious, personal God.	One main God.
Use of statues and pictures	Common	Permitted, there are several drawings regarding Prophet Zoroaster and symbolic images of God (Ahura Mazda).
Followers	Buddhists	Zoroastrians.
Founder	Gautama Buddha (born as Prince Siddhartha)	Zarathustra Haechataspa Spitama or Zoroaster (Greek) or Zartosht (Parsi)
Means of Salvation	Following the Noble Eightfold Path.	Good thoughts, good words, and good deeds.
Scriptures	Tripitaka	The Zend Avesta.
Human Nature	Ignorance, as all sentient beings. In the Buddhist texts, it is seen that when Gautama, after his awakening, was asked whether he was a normal human being, he replied, "No".	equal ability to do good or evil.
Literal Meaning	Buddhists are those who follow the teachings of the Buddha in order to become like the Buddha.	Follower of Zoroaster.
Life after death	Rebirth is one of the central beliefs of Buddhism. We are in an endless cycle of birth, death and re-birth, which can only be broken by attaining nirvana. Attaining nirvana is the only way to escape suffering permanently.	Eternal life in Heaven, or in Hell.
Population	300-350 million.	Approx. 100,000 Zoroastrians in the world.
Time of origin	2,500 years ago, circa 563 B.C.E. (Before Common Era)	600 B.C.E.
Concept of Deity	Subject to debate	Zoroaster proclaimed that all of the Iranian daevas were bad spirits and deserved no worship. These "bad" spirits were created by Angra Mainyu, the hostile and evil spirit. The existence of Angra Mainyu was the source of all sin and misery in the universe. Zoroaster claimed that Ahura Mazda was not an omnipotent God, but used the aid of humans in the cosmic struggle against Angra Mainyu. Nonetheless, Ahura Mazda is Angra Mainyu's superior, not his equal.

 

Well, they seem some copied and pasted  vague comparative stats ... what do you want education with ?

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I did not know that Zoroaster and Zarathustra were the same person. 

 

The 2nd is closer to the original Avestan , the first closer to the Greek rendering .

 

Zoroaster (/ˌzɒroʊˈæstər ˈzɒroʊˌæstər/; from Greek Ζωροάστρης Zōroastrēs), also known as Zarathustra (/ˌzɑːrəˈθuːstrə/; Avestan:  Zaraθuštra), Zarathushtra Spitama or Ashu Zarathushtra,  

[Lost in Translation]

Just now, Nungali said:

 

The 2nd is closer to the original Avestan , the first closer to the Greek rendering .

 

Zoroaster (/ˌzɒroʊˈæstər ˈzɒroʊˌæstər/; from Greek Ζωροάστρης Zōroastrēs), also known as Zarathustra (/ˌzɑːrəˈθuːstrə/; Avestan:  Zaraθuštra), Zarathushtra Spitama or Ashu Zarathushtra,  

 

Oh, it's like the whole Zeus and Pluto thing! ... silly languages ...

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I did not know that Zoroaster and Zarathustra were the same person. 

Yeah, although not really important, Zarathustra is the name of the man, Zoroaster is how the Greeks translated his name and Zoroaster is the root name for the religion.

[Nungali]

Also  'Zardusht'   I think is another version.

 

One thing that arises in in depth study is the uncertainty of the dating .  

https://www.jstor.org/stable/615820?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

... and the general articles like Wiki on dating .   (my vies is that he was a reformer of an earlier  'Zoroastrian like ' religion (and this was a reformation of a similar earlier 'Aryan religion' . )   so elements of both original and reformation get confused and re-dated.

 

Also the phenomenal amount of lost or destroyed records ; Alexander and the Islamic/Arab invasion  - about 90% of what they had ... lost .

 

Most of their record is 'mytho-scriptual'  it ends before history ... then there is a giant gap in the record  (possibly war or disruption with other Indo-Iranian Aryans that did not accept Zoroastrianism ).

 

The record resumes with early history of Assyrians who first reported 'Parsa or Parsua ' (later Persians )  who were emerging out of the Zargos Mts and moving into Media plains and lowlands .  (Eventually the people to the east of Assyria  banded together against Assyrian raids and warfare, Parsa got the upper hand, eventually taking over the Medians and Persia 'Empire' came into existence  that extolled many Zoroastrian principles  ( like allowing the  conquered people to have their own religions , supporting and building their temples,  releasing the Jews from captivity .... all smart moves to make for a stable empire. )

 

... Aside ; this supposedly goes back to the old pre historical principle of Zoroastrian 'good kingship'  which supposedly made their  first centre or 'homeland' - Aryana Vaeja  one of the best places to live .    We also have there,  beginnings of a  4 fold 'caste system' with them as well, but more like a system of 'trades and occupations' .  I was recently reading where Ahura Mazda  supposedly represented some wise ancient king that gave out teachings, thats why such principles were embedded so strongly in the culture.

 

One never knows  perhaps the 'shining radiant being'' that communicated all this too him was a metaphorical flattery ? 

 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Nungali

[Nungali]

32 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Oh, it's like the whole Zeus and Pluto thing! ... silly languages ...

 

 .. Hang on ...   do you mean   Zeus and Jupiter  ... or    Pluto and Hades ?

 

 

 

[Lost in Translation]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

.. Hang on ...   do you mean   Zeus and Jupiter  ... or    Pluto and Hades ?

 

Ugh!

 

Khaaaaaaannnnn!

 

 

[Marblehead]

16 minutes ago, Nungali said:

One thing that arises in in depth study is the uncertainty of the dating .  

 

Yes, much of the history of Zoroastrianism has been lost.  But this is openly admitted by the scholars when they speak to the history of the religion and do their best to not inject information that cannot be verified.

 

It likely goes back further than 600 BCE but supporting evidence is absent.

 

[Nungali]

also, being originally an oral tradition ... who knows when that started ?

 

The 'Pishdadian Era' is very interesting . but pre-historical  and perhaps speculative ?

 

https://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/legendary/index.htm

 

Even in pre historical ancient times they seemed to know about lands from  Indus valley all the way over to Anatolia  ... but not Mesopotamia , that is , apparently not south of the Zargos (until Persua emerged )  .

 

 

[Marblehead]

I can't recall having been to that site before.  Looks like a pretty good and accurate of the pre-history of Zoroastrianism.

 

I think it would be fair to say that Zarathustra had many influences when he established what became Zoroastrianism.

 

 

[Lost in Translation]

All this talk is making me want to watch Ghostbusters again...

[Nungali]

I will post this here for context   (in relation to future posts ).

 

• c. 3200 BC: Sumerian cuneiform writing system.
• 3200 BC: Newgrange built in Ireland.
• 3200 BC: Cycladic culture in Greece
• 3200 BC: Rise of Proto-Elamite Civilization in Iran
• 3100 BC: First dynasty of Egypt
• 3000 BC: Jiroft civilization begins in Iran
• 3000 BC: First known use of papyrus by Egyptians
• 2800 BC: Kot Diji phase of the Indus Valley Civilization begins
• 2800 BC: Longshan culture in China
• 2700 BC: Minoan Civilization ancient palace city Knossos reach 80,000 inhabitants
• 2700 BC: Rise of Elam in Iran
• 2700 BC: The Old Kingdom begins in Egypt
• 2600 BC: Oldest known surviving literature: Sumerian texts from Abu Salabikh, including the Instructions of Shuruppak and the Kesh temple hymn.
• 2600 BC: Mature Harappan phase of the Indus Valley civilization (in present-day Pakistan and India) begins
• 2600 BC: Emergence of Maya culture in the Yucatán Peninsula
• 2560 BC: King Khufu completes the Great Pyramid of Giza.
• 2334 or 2270 BC: Akkadian Empire is founded, dating depends upon whether the Middle chronology or the Short chronology is used.
• 2200-2100 BC: 4.2 kiloyear event: a severe aridification phase, likely connected to a Bond event, which was registered throughout most North Africa, Middle East and continental North America. Related droughts very likely caused the collapse of the Old Kingdom in Egypt and of the Akkadian Empire in Mesopotamia.
• 2200 BC: completion of Stonehenge.
• 2000 BC: Domestication of the horse
• 1800 BC: alphabetic writing emerges
• 1780 BC: Oldest Record of Hammurabi's Code.
• 1700 BC: Indus Valley Civilization comes to an end but is continued by the Cemetery H culture;
• 1600 BC: Mycenaean Greece
• 1600 BC: The beginning of Shang Dynasty in China, evidence of a fully developed Chinese writing system
• 1600 BC: Beginning of Hittite dominance of the Eastern Mediterranean region
• 1500 BC: Composition of the Rigveda is completed
• 1500 BC  earliest date for Proto Indo -  Iranian  religion.
• 1500 - 1000 BC earliest date for Zoroaster ¹
• 1600 BC: Beginning of Hittite dominance of the Eastern Mediterranean region
• 1100 BC: Use of Iron spreads.
• 890 BC: Approximate date for the composition of the Iliad and the Odyssey
• 800 BC: Rise of Greek city-states
• 650BC - 522 BC latest date for Zoroaster ²
• 550 BC  First dynasty of Persian Empire ( Archaemenid ) .

 

1. Some scholars^[8] such as Mary Boyce (who dated Zoroaster to somewhere between 1700–1000 BCE) used linguistic and socio-cultural evidence to place Zoroaster between 1500 and 1000 BCE (or 1200 and 900 BCE).^[7][24] The basis of this theory is primarily proposed on linguistic similarities between the Old Avestan language of the Zoroastrian Gathas and the Sanskrit of the Rigveda (c. 1700–1100 BCE), a collection of early Vedic hymns. Both texts are considered to have a common archaic Indo-Iranian origin. The Gathas portray an ancient Stone-Bronze Age bipartite society of warrior-herdsmen and priests (compared to Bronze tripartite society; some conjecture that it depicts the Yaz culture^[25]), and thus it is implausible that the Gathas and Rigveda could have been composed more than a few centuries apart. These scholars suggest that Zoroaster lived in an isolated tribe or composed the Gathas before the 1200–1000 BCE migration by the Iranians from the steppe to the Iranian Plateau.^{[6][26][7][27][28]} The shortfall of the argument is the vague comparison, and the archaic language of Gathas does not necessarily indicate time difference.^[5][23]

 

2^. Other scholars^[8] propose a period between 7th and 6th century, for example, c. 650–600 BCE or 559–522 BCE.^[23][24] The latest possible date is the mid 6th century, at the time of Achaemenid Empire's Darius I, or his predecessor Cyrus the Great. This date gains credence mainly on the thesis that certain figures must be based on historical facts,^[24] thus some have related the mythical Vishtaspa with Darius I's father Vishtaspa (or Hystaspes in Greek) with the account on Zoroasters life. However, in the Avesta it should not be ignored that Vishtaspa's son became the ruler of the Persian Empire, Darius I would not ignore to include his patron-father in the Behistun Inscription. A different proposed conclusion is that Darius I's father was named in honor of the Zoroastrian patron, indicating possible Zoroastrian faith by Arsames.^[29]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster

[moment]

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Well, they seem some copied and pasted  vague comparative stats ...what do you want education with ?

 

On the first part of your comment, obviously, that was what it was intended to be. You need not worry about the education part though, you have been doing very well on that and I thank you for asking.I also thank you for all of your above in this thread. I appreciated this line of yours: "One never knows  perhaps the 'shining radiant being'' that communicated all this to him was a metaphorical flattery ?"  I suspect that has happened often through out history in all things religious.

Edited April 20, 2018 by moment

[Marblehead]

Yes, I think that as a result of the information Nungali is presenting we find that the roots of Zoroastrianism reach back much further than Zarathustra himself.

 

I have an attachment to Zoroastrianism because it is the one religion that states specifically that God created man with free will.  And this free will allows us, each individual, to make choices in our life.  How Taoist is that?

 

Edited April 20, 2018 by Marblehead

[moment]

3 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Yes, I think that as a result of the information Nungali is presenting we find that the roots of Zoroastrianism reach back much further than Zarathustra himself.

 

I have an attachment to Zoroastrianism because it is the one religion that states specifically that God created mad with free will.  And this free will allows us, each individual, to make choices in our life.  How Taoist is that?

 

I agree.  You saw this quote before:   "With an open mind, seek and listen to all the highest ideals. Consider the most enlightened thoughts. Then choose your path, person by person, each for oneself." --Zoroaster

 I apologize for the cut and paste coming in so bold.

 

That is so much what much of this site is about.  Learning and figuring out what is best individually.  Zoroaster was so far ahead of his time.  He was amazing.

[Boundlesscostfairy]

I heard that the occult aspect of Zoroastrianism is like Alchemy..

 

Follows the Compass..of position.. and the elements.. as well..

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

I heard that the occult aspect of Zoroastrianism is like Alchemy..

 

Follows the Compass..of position.. and the elements.. as well..

You are ahead of me here.  I tend to over-look the occult and alchemy.

 

[Boundlesscostfairy]

I can genuinely see Zoroastrianism in your Signature even..

[Marblehead]

5 minutes ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

I can genuinely see Zoroastrianism in your Signature even..

Great observation.  I hadn't noticed that myself.  But it is there, isn't it?

 

[Marblehead]

And I suppose that I should mention that I have to give Nietzsche credit for introducing me to Zoroastrianism through his book "Thus Spoke Zarathustra".