Zoroastrianism

[moment]

5 hours ago, Marblehead said:

And I suppose that I should mention that I have to give Nietzsche credit for introducing me to Zoroastrianism through his book "Thus Spoke Zarathustra".

 

 

 

 

Thank you, Marblehead.  I am going to check that out.

[moment]

5 hours ago, Marblehead said:

And I suppose that I should mention that I have to give Nietzsche credit for introducing me to Zoroastrianism through his book "Thus Spoke Zarathustra".

 

 

 

 

 

I just got Grahm Parkes' translation for $3.99 on Ebay with free shipping  from Thrift books. cool, cool.

Edited April 20, 2018 by moment

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, moment said:

 

On the first part of your comment, obviously, that was what it was intended to be. You need not worry about the education part though, you have been doing very well on that and I thank you for asking.I also thank you for all of your above in this thread. I appreciated this line of yours: "One never knows  perhaps the 'shining radiant being'' that communicated all this to him was a metaphorical flattery ?"  I suspect that has happened often through out history in all things religious.

 

Flattery ... or witnessing the unusual .   I had an amusing incident at home once ; the inside fire was well alight , a bit overcast outside, I have windows on the cabin that are hinged vertically, so open sideways. Outside the window is a bush, about shoulder height. The window must have been open at the exact angle and I was sitting in the right place as the window was reflecting back to me the interior of the cabin, but being darker inside than out nothing was reflected except the flames of the fire, which was lined up right in front of the bush behind the window .  I remember seeing it out the corner of my eye while engrossed in reading ... 'A fire ! ?  Outside ! ?

 

The bush was burning .... yet it was not burning !  It took me a moment to realise what I was seeing      .

 

" I saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. So I thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”

⁴ When the Lord saw that I had gone over to look, God called to me from within the bush, “Nungali Nungali!”

And I said, “Here I am.”

⁵ “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” ⁶ Then he said, “I am the God of your father,^[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Nungali hid his face, because he realised he had smoked too much 'burning bush' himself that morning .

 

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yes, I think that as a result of the information Nungali is presenting we find that the roots of Zoroastrianism reach back much further than Zarathustra himself.

 

I have an attachment to Zoroastrianism because it is the one religion that states specifically that God created man with free will.  And this free will allows us, each individual, to make choices in our life.  How Taoist is that?

 

 

There is another aspect of it that I consider Taoistic ;  its about following your own specific 'way'   finding one's individual purpose , or as Crowley put it in his 'philosophy of Thelema'  following one's 'True Will'  - the idea is, if everyone graduates to their own true purpose and inner fulfilment  we have a better society with little regulation needed and less restrictions and laws and the freedom for each to express their genius.  -   I know when I follow, and act according to my own True Will - my essential nature , things seem to naturally fall into place for me .

 

There are two similar concepts in Zoroastrianism ( perhaps that is where Crowley lifted it from ? )  ;  the 'True Will' concept  is like the concept of the   Khvarenah  in Zoroastrianism   ( an individualised archetype one can develop into, developing one's highest potential and capacity ).

 

The other ; the 'better society' model is a central ideal of Zoroastrianism ; it was and will be  , that is, they believed they lived in an original paradise at Airyana Vaeja but the climate changed and leaders fell from grace and the usual wars and battles with others. They believe they will get it back in some type of Golden Age to come when the teachings  about behaviour and society are implemented. It centres around a concept of 'Para - diz '  -  where we get our term 'paradise' from , a concept some suggest was the root of the Garden of Eden story developed from the Aryana Vaeja story. And the Paradise to come is represented by the establishment of the 'New Jerusalem' when Jesus returns.

[Nungali]

..... more about this to come  in the little article I am working on .... gotta scoot into town for training  ( nearly forgot ! ... its Saturday ! )

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Marblehead said:

You are ahead of me here.  I tend to over-look the occult and alchemy.

 

 

More on this later too .... so much of what we call 'the occult' comes from this source .  Also we have the Magi .  And the contributions to Alexandria. Then the knowledge being transferred to Harran as "Hermetics'. Then the Zoroastrians there convincing the newly arising Muslims  and their 'convert or loose your head' that they were 'people of the Book' and could retain their religion. This was accepted (probably mostly due to the enormous potential amount of dimma tax they could then impose on them .

 

Basically this led to Islam adopting hermeticism   ( the 'science' of that age ) , and lead to the great age of science in Islam, which eventually went to Europe, fuelled the Renaissance and   Enlightenment and  eventually the Modern Scientific revolution  !

 

 - ore on this later as well .

[moment]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

..... more about this to come  in the little article I am working on .... gotta scoot into town for training  ( nearly forgot ! ... its Saturday ! )

Saturday!  You must be a long ways away from me.  It is 4pm Friday here in the Pacific N.W.

Edited April 20, 2018 by moment

[9th]

Those naughty Magi...

 

Something something Babylonian money magic, amirite?

[9th]

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

More on And the contributions to Alexandria. Then the knowledge being transferred to Harran as "Hermetics'. Then the Zoroastrians there convincing the newly arising Muslinlightenment and  eventually the Modern Scientific revolution  !

 

 - ore on this later as well .

 

Too late now

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, 9th said:

 

Too late now

I like to think that it is never too late but that's not really true.  Some conditions arise only once in a life-time or whatever and after the opportunity is not acted on there is never a second chance.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

More on this later too .... so much of what we call 'the occult' comes from this source .  Also we have the Magi .  And the contributions to Alexandria. Then the knowledge being transferred to Harran as "Hermetics'. Then the Zoroastrians there convincing the newly arising Muslims  and their 'convert or loose your head' that they were 'people of the Book' and could retain their religion. This was accepted (probably mostly due to the enormous potential amount of dimma tax they could then impose on them .

 

Basically this led to Islam adopting hermeticism   ( the 'science' of that age ) , and lead to the great age of science in Islam, which eventually went to Europe, fuelled the Renaissance and   Enlightenment and  eventually the Modern Scientific revolution  !

 

 - ore on this later as well .

 

How do you see the connection between Zoroastrianism and Hellenistic Hermeticism? The latter without a doubt being the primary source of the Harrans' understanding of natural philosophy. Though Zoroastrianism seems to have some link with Alchemy, in particular.

[9th]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I like to think that it is never too late but that's not really true.  Some conditions arise only once in a life-time or whatever and after the opportunity is not acted on there is never a second chance.

 

 

My man...

[moment]

Lots of info here.

 

http://www.avesta.org/

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

How do you see the connection between Zoroastrianism and Hellenistic Hermeticism? The latter without a doubt being the primary source of the Harrans' understanding of natural philosophy. Though Zoroastrianism seems to have some link with Alchemy, in particular.

 

Through Alexandria .  Alexander  had just been through Persian Empire and , more importantly , Central Asia  and the Persian Satrapies there.  There was already a vast and advanced civilisation in Central Asia and it was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism and its related 'arts' - it had very early developed it own knowledge  ( things like astrology¹ , medicine,² etc  and was heir to  Babylonian  knowledge as well ).    It  played a smaller part in contributing to the Alexandrian Synthesis ( mostly the Greeks, Egyptians, ' ,  Jews and Syrians ) but did  contribute.

 

Also, 'historically'  the scholiast of the Alcibiades affirms that Zoroaster left philosophical writings. The Clementine Recognitions assert that books of magic under the title of Zoroaster circulated in large number. Proclus, a Greek philosopher of the fourth century AD, knew of four books on Nature by Zoroaster dedicated to King Cyrus. Hermippus, who lived about 200 BC, wrote a book on the Magi and believed in the Oriental origins of Greek thought. According to Pliny, he "commented upon two million verses left by Zoroaster, besides completing indexes to his several works."

 

 

1. http://zoroastrianastrology.blogspot.com.au/p/astronomy.html

2. " In addition, Greek Medicine probably absorbed a lot of elements from the folk medicines of the lands conquered, as well as from Persian and Zoroastrian medicine.  "   http://www.greekmedicine.net/whos_who/Alexander_the_Great.html

 

Also, for you Michael, you might find  this book of interest ;  The Art and Science of Healing Since Antiquity

 

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=CYwlUOpimYAC&pg=PA219&lpg=PA219&dq=contribution+of+zoroastrians+to+alexandria&source=bl&ots=XyapuAhHNy&sig=QSDzlNLVw4vcBPEzZ2jEqaHLX3o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJ7uvguszaAhUEUbwKHXKDCLo4ChDoAQgmMAA#v=onepage&q=contribution of zoroastrians to alexandria&f=false  -  ( 7 )

 

and  https://makedonia-alexandros.blogspot.com.au/2010/01/alexander-great-and-magi.html

 

Edited April 21, 2018 by Nungali

[Nungali]

... and also ;

 

Destruction of the Achaemenian Avesta by Alexander (330 BCE)

Arda Viraf (see above), goes on to state in the Arda Wiraz Namag (Arda Viraf Namah) that Alexander of Macedonia, in 330 BCE, burned the Avestan manuscripts deposited at the royal library at Ishtakhr. Alexander also ordered killed several judges, dasturs, mobeds, herbads (priests) and other upholders of the religion, as well as the competent and wise of the country of Iran (in an attempt to destroy the oral tradition as well).

Bundahishn 33.14: "Then, during the reign of Darius son of Darius, the emperor Alexander came to Iranshahr, scurrying from Arum (Europe), killed king Darius, destroyed all the families of rulers, magi, and public men of Iranshahr, extinguished an immense number of sacred fires, seized the commentary (zand) of the Revelation of Mazda-worship, and sent it to Arum, burned the Avesta, and divided Iranshahr among ninety petty rulers."

Mahankard (c. 750 CE. Translated from Middle Persian to Arabic): Alexander destroyed the original ancient Persian books after having them translated into Greek. (Other accounts below state that only certain topics/books were translated and the others, e.g. religious, were destroyed without translation.)

Ibn Qutayba (d. 889 Arabic): Alexander conquered the kingdom of Iran and burned the books of their religion.

Sahristaniha-e Iran (Middle Persian): Alexander destroyed the Avesta which was stored in writing in Samarqand. (We note here that the written Avesta was stored in what may be considered the regional capital of the Eastern Iranian (Persian) Empire.

Hamza al-Isfahani, wr. 961 [Eight collated translations of the Middle Persian Khwaday Namag (Khoda Namah also used by Ferdowsi) to Arabic] & supported by the account of Musa ibn Isa al-Kisrawi: Alexander, jealous of the unparalled knowledge of the Persian nation, first translated what he needed from the Persian, then destroyed the rest, killing the Magi too. Although he destroyed their books on religion, he translated their books dealing with philosophy, astrology, medicine, and agriculture from Persian into Greek and Egyptian, which he sent to Alexandria (cf. our page on Ostanes - Persian Sage in Egypt). This account confirms that the Avesta and supporting texts were encyclopaedic in knowledge as further confirmed by the Dinkard's summary of the 21 books of the Avesta.

Tansar-Nama (Persian translated from Middle Persian): Alexander destroyed the Avesta.

Din Vijirgard (Persian in Pahlavi script): Alexander destroyed the Nasks (Books of the Avesta) except for those concerning medicine and the stars, with he had translated into Roman (i.e. Greek. Post Parthian period, the Persians called Europe 'Rome' since the interface with the Iranian / Persian Empire was the Roman Empire.)

[The above list is further catalogued and referenced in The Arabic Hermes: from Pagan Sage to Prophet of Science by Kevin Thomas Van Bladel, pp 33-35.. Also see our page on Ostanes - Persian Sage in Egypt for further citations regarding the preservation and recovery of some texts in Egypt. The first reconstruction - and second compilation took place during Parthian rule.]

 

https://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/scriptures/history.htm#complilation

[Boundlesscostfairy]

\\\\\\\\\\fire is First..

 

Than Air...

 

After that is wind or power(motion)

 

Then comes the rising air..or gravity basis for the situating the Moon! Rising above the Sun is the arrow of time..but what cannot be conjectured is a hidden mystery within the gravity of time...which includes in and of itself..The Atma..or Lord over the reining and remaining Matter! Rocks are bequest with things forlore.. And that is a Type of Grand Gloriosity.. Or Generosity. Glorious Lord Brendan and Greg! From the Lands and Lords of Free Will..which have established a Round Table..which is a pulling and Jeering metaphor for the Circle of Atonement..amongst all Men and Lords of Way..

[moment]

Does anyone know why the Zoroastrians have three calendars?

[moment]

 

Zoroastrians call their prayers Manthras.  The official Zoroastrian line seems to be that Manthras are holy spells?  If so, doesn't this mean that the mainline Zoroastrians believe in magic? If so, how far does this belief in magic go officially and in what context? 

[moment]

How is it that Zoroastrianism speaks so much about dualism, when one of its' greatest proponents (Cyrus) as far as I can tell, does not?

Edited April 22, 2018 by moment

[Nungali]

Make up of the Psyche ;

 

Many cultures have ways of classifying the various ‘levels’ or components that make up the ‘non-material’ nature of Humans .  

 

Such models of the psyche have been more popular during times of hermetic revivals or interest , we might find a lot of these have their roots in more ancient beliefs and teachings.

 

I suppose most would be more familiar with these things via their ancient Egyptian concepts ;  Ba, Kha, Akh, Ren, Khat,  etc. or classifications used in Vedanta , Buddhism, etc.

 

Some interpretations  suggest some aspects are developmental and in relationship to the ‘establishment’ of the others  - that is they need to be developed in life, or as some here might put it, they need to be ‘cultivated’.

 

Zoroastrianism seems to hold this principle as well.

 

Mainyu is a term mostly translated as ‘spirit’ - generally, that is ;  the co-existent dual opposite of  physical existence, (Gaetha. - non-physical or non-material existence) that exists side-by-side with physical existence - beyond senses but not ‘feelings’ and intuitions. It is believed human beings are constituted from both the material and spiritual existences but our spirit shapes and determines the nature of our attitudes and  mentality.

Urvan or Ravan – commonly translated as ‘soul’.  Zoroastrians believe all creatures have a soul- they also have laws about animals, which led them to be considered as the first people to instil animal rights. A person's character (and that of their soul) is built on the type of spirit a person chooses and is within that person's control through free will.

 

Types of ‘spirit’ are  brilliant, positive, constructive, and beneficent spirit that seeks wisdom ( spenta mainyu ) .  A gloomy, negative, destructive, and harmful spirit that wishes to remain ignorant ( angra mainyu ). The fate of the human soul depends on its store of thoughts, words and deeds. The human soul receives in the afterlife what it has given out in this life. The soul creates its heaven or hell, both of which are a state of spiritual existence and not places. They believe that the urvan or soul comes from God.  

Fravashi  -  a  ‘spiritual component ‘ that resides in all of creation, living and not living, called the fravashi . Sometimes called ‘the divine spark’ .

 

It seems similar to other cultures concepts where there is a divine spark or light of reflection off the ‘central flame’, light or God.   It is the essence or seed of soul.  Then it is up to the individual how they develop it, as indwells us , in either  ‘angra or spenta’ .

“ While the urvan is personal, the fravashi is universal. “

 

This aspect of the fravashi maintains, sustains and helps creation progressively move or evolve towards  an ultimate and ideal future existence (individually and socially )  - a strong concept in Zoroastrianism; a returning ‘golden age’ . The fravashi gives a person intuitive access to the moral and ethical laws of Asha, and allows a person to gain insights into the nature of creation through introspection.

Khvarenah – is the developmental concept. The khvarenah is the archetype of the person one can grow to if allowed to grow to the limit of her or his capacity in grace, that is, in keeping with the fravashi and thereby in keeping with Divine purpose. In the Avesta, the khvarenah is frequently described as 'Mazda-datem', i.e. God-given or God-gifted.

The khvarenah is also a person's higher calling - their meaning in life [the Middle Persian Pahlavi rending of khvarenah is khvesh-kari meaning own-work or own-purpose (in keeping with Divine purpose i.e. the higher calling)].

 

This concept is like the Thelemic (Crowley) concept of ‘true Will’  ; one’s ‘life work and purpose or ‘Great Work’ .  Its obviously lifted from earlier sources.  The theory goes ; Every human being is endowed with natural talents that can be harnessed and developed to achieve one's highest potential or one's higher calling [sometimes thought of as one's latent destiny in life] also referred to as one’s ‘genius’. Alternatively, through choice, these talents can be employed to achieve base ambitions. The khvarenah is specific to a person and is different for each person.  

 

The term originally seems similar to ‘fravashi’ in that root is about ‘shining lights’ , but through the development of Zoroastrianism during the ‘middle’ period, it seems influenced by, or interpreted in terms of some Greek concepts.  

 

Khvarenah is said to relate to the Greek ‘ Tuche ‘, a very distant ancestor of the word “luck”, is a much broader concept than that in the cosmology of Greek antiquity: it essentially means all the forces that bear down on human life but are  out of anyone’s control. It is luck, yes, also Fate, but also nature, society, the wrath of the gods, or the weight of historical events in motion. In contrast techne–as opposed to tuche— is used to describe the artefacts of civilisation made by humans .

 

Zoroastrians believe when all human beings realize their calling or full potential in grace, the world will attain - the ultimate and ideal future existence, a heaven on earth. This new society is based on an idea of a past perfection ( from old homeland ‘Airyana Vaeja’ - the best and most advanced place to live {at the time} and a future ‘golden age’ ; ‘Para-diz – where we got the idea of The Garden of Eden (paradise) and the promised ‘New Jerusalem’ when Jesus returns .

 

While to some extent, a person's lot in life is determined by birth and circumstance, a person can find her or his latent khvarenah or calling by envisioning the person one aspires to become in grace, and then taking steps to realize the khvarenah despite daunting obstacles and adversity.

 

In mythology, the khvarenah is like a bird that hovers over a person, and one that can fly away and grace is replaced by evil ambitions.

United Fravashi . A person's spiritual components, that is, the person's urvan (soul), mainyu (spirit), fravashi and khvarenah can unite . 

 

Eventually, a person with a united fraveshi can evolve to asha (abiding) fravashis . If the spirit, soul and khvarenah are in harmony with asha, they come together to form a united fravashi. If they are not in harmony with asha, then there is separation from the fravashi in this life, and by extension in the after life.  

 

The united fravashi of the righteous have the ability to become ‘guardian angels’;  “ They, the asha-abiding fravashis, come to assist those who are beneficent and not hurtful or offensive. To them, the fravashis will assuredly come flying like birds well-winged. ( Farvardin Yasht , 13.70)

 

Here  are some other snippets of belief;

    A person's quest for spiritual awareness, growth, or realization is an individual quest.

 

   The path to spiritual realization is through an open mind, a good mind, reason, wisdom, goodness, security and serenity.

 

    Spiritual awareness and connection comes through introspection, reflection and meditation while reciting a manthra, preferably facing a source of light such as a flame.

 

    Spiritual understanding comes from an open mind, listening, and then deciding person by person, each one for herself or himself, that person's individual path to spiritual realization  - keeping an open mind and listening does not mean blindly following others or unquestioned faith,  Blind faith leads to delusion (Gatha 48.10).

 

    Spiritual development comes through possessing the six Amesha Spenta qualities (developing the spirit, mind, body and indeed all aspect of one's life) and simultaneously being in tune with each element of nature, thereby being in harmony with God's work.
[ The Amesha Spentas as attributes of God are:
    Vohu Mano, the high mind (creation was caused by a divine thought)
    Asha, cosmic order and universal laws
    Khshathra, dominion
    Armaiti, equanimity
    Haurvatat, ultimate wholeness
    Ameretat, immortality
    In a further attempt to understand God and how God interfaces with God's creation, the six qualities and attributes, the Amesha Spentas, were thought of as archangels - abstract extensions of God - each associated with an aspect of creation.
    
reflected as attributes or aspirations of humans are ;

    Vohu Mano in human beings is the good mind.
    Asha is principled, honest, beneficent, ordered, lawful living - for some, righteousness and piety.
    Khshathra is having dominion and sovereignty over one's life.
    Armaiti is serenity.
    Haurvatat is being holistic and healthy. It is also seeking excellence in all we do.
    Ameretat is transcending mortal limitations through good health, by handing down the spiritual flame  and by building an enduring, undying spirit, ) a united fraveshi )  ]

 

 Ushta - One's goal in life.
    The goal in life is to achieve ushta: abiding spiritual resplendence, happiness, and peace - an individual at peace with oneself and humanity at peace with itself. Spiritual resplendence gives a person the light of wisdom, a sense of spiritual confidence that the path a person has chosen will lead to a meaningful and fulfilling life. It is inner enlightenment of the spiritual self and a beacon that lights the path ahead.

 

As with the Amesha Spentas , ushta is a conceptual word rather than a word with a single meaning. Realization of ushta follows as an outcome of leading a life based on the Amesha Spentas of which two have a special connection: asha and armaiti.

While a person's spiritual quest is an individual one, achieving ushta requires living the life of an ashavan - a life of beneficent goodness towards all. One cannot achieve ushta by isolating oneself or being self-centred. A manifestation of abiding peace is serenity or armaiti.

Goal of Life - two main principles ; Vahishtem Anghuim and Frasho-Kereri - The Best Existence & An Ideal Future
The goal of life on earth is to live the best existence.

[Paraphrased  sourced and quoted from various sources including Zoroastrian Heritage Institute and Encyclopedia Iranica . ]

 

 

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

\\\\\\\\\\fire is First..

 

Than Air...

 

After that is wind or power(motion)

 

OR

 air is first .  fire and water are the obvious opposites, so a base line is constructed ;

 

fire  ---------------- water .

 

Air is the obvious mediator ;

 

             Air

 

Fire               Water

 

All forces ( in  their 'ideal state' ) are in a triangular relationship .  Air is the obvious mediator . Out of this triangle of the 'ideal' , the 'real'  is formed  and projected as a 4th state  ; 'earth' *.   Now we have a four fold elemental arrangement that is projected through 'matter'  ... on this level fire is first  ; fire water air earth .

 

The glyph for this process is the triangle with a cross beneath it  .

 

Or , if you like  physics  ;

 

         

                                                                    EMF

 

            

 

                                           SF                                               WF

 

            

                                                                      |

                                                                --  G  --

                                                                      |

   

* But still, this arrangement is based on an  'old school' hermetic concept ; the earth seemed at the bottom or below everything, water lay upon the earth and the air was above both, fire rose up through the air - it was a type of 'specific gravity' arrangement,

     

 

18 hours ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

 

Then comes the rising air..or gravity basis for the situating the Moon! Rising above the Sun is the arrow of time..but what cannot be conjectured is a hidden mystery within the gravity of time...which includes in and of itself..The Atma..or Lord over the reining and remaining Matter! Rocks are bequest with things forlore.. And that is a Type of Grand Gloriosity.. Or Generosity. Glorious Lord Brendan and Greg! From the Lands and Lords of Free Will..which have established a Round Table..which is a pulling and Jeering metaphor for the Circle of Atonement..amongst all Men and Lords of Way..

 

 

Wheeeeee  ! 

 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, moment said:

Does anyone know why the Zoroastrians have three calendars?

 

Mostly because they had an old tradition, were invaded by another culture and suffered dispersal.

 

They realised astronomical precession fairly early in their history (comparatively) .  Each of the calendars still has some  modern significance for them  with special dates, seasons,  festivities, etc .  and there were updates as more knowledge came to them . There have been attempts at unification.

 

For an overview      http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/calendar/index.htm

 

(There is a similar thing in Vedanta , the original festivities and seasons got 'out of sync' due to precession as they are both such old systems, and new systems had to be developed.)

 

People will find all sorts of things to fight over when religion is involved  ... even a calendar  ! 

 

" We record the kabisa controversy with a sad heart. Starting in the 1700s, the Zoroastrians of Surat engaged themselves in a dispute that has since divided the entire community - a division that was and is entirely unnecessary. Compounding this unnecessary division is the realization that both sides to the dispute were fighting over two errors - it was an absurd case of whose mistake was more sacred.  "

 

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/parsi/surat3.htm#kabisa

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2018 by Nungali

[moment]

In some of the older Zoroastrian documents they mention earth being in three layers.  The first layer is the crust, the second is a fiery hell but, i can't find anything about what the third layer is.  Does anyone here know?

Edited April 22, 2018 by moment

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, moment said:

 

Zoroastrians call their prayers Manthras.  The official Zoroastrian line seems to be that Manthras are holy spells?  If so, doesn't this mean that the mainline Zoroastrians believe in magic? If so, how far does this belief in magic go officially and in what context? 

 

The word magic itself comes from Magi - a type of Zoroastrian priest / class / tribe .    See the  above post with the comments about Hermetics.    Hermetics gave birth to one type of 'magic' .

 

A mantra or a prayer is also a type of magic - invocation .     What we call magic I think Zoroastrians certainly believed in, But they may have not seen it the way we do .  Before the 14 c  in Europe (and still today in many places ) people had a type of 'non-dual' awareness; there was no distinction between 'reality' the 'material world' , 'magic' , the 'Gods' ,  etc .   Most ancient languages dont actually have a word for 'religion' as we understand it ,  the words they use often mean 'law' .   It isnt 'religion' or 'magic' as such ... its just the way things were .... or maybe even they saw it as we see science.

 

Again ZHI ;      http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/worship/healingprayer.htm

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, moment said:

How is it that Zoroastrianism speaks so much about dualism, when one of its' greatest proponents (Cyrus) as far as I can tell, does not?

 

Dualism seemed to come and go through various stages of Zoroastrian development and interpretation . I read an interesting linguistic paper looking at some Avestan terms from the Gathas where it was claimed that such dualism was inserted via western interpretations and understandings.  The stronger dualism seems to come from a latter time. 

 

The early dualism seems to relate to a human propensity of the 'mind' ... to go or do good or bad .  . . .   or , more precisely , to develop as Vohu or Angra  (see how quickly we can slip into using our own words and concepts when we translate ! )