Yin and yang and philosophical Taoism

[wandelaar]

In what way can the concepts or symbols of yin and yang contribute to an understanding of philosophical Taoism?

[thelerner]

I like the concept that at extremes things can becomes there opposite. 

and that the heart of each lies its opposite. 

[wandelaar]

7 minutes ago, thelerner said:

I like the concept that at extremes things can becomes there opposite

 

So thinking in terms of yin and yang is a way to keep alert to the possibility that "at extremes things can becomes there opposite"?

 

7 minutes ago, thelerner said:

and that the heart of each lies its opposite. 

 

That one I don't understand...

[dawei]

You could reduce the idea of yin and yang as duality too... but duality can be a kind of trap from seeing or understanding the non-dual aspect.

 

one way I tend to view things is as two poles on a spectrum instead of purely a duality.  Thus the two poles are just extremes of each other, yet because they are part of the spectrum, therein lies the opposite pole too.   

[thelerner]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

So thinking in terms of yin and yang is a way to keep alert to the possibility that "at extremes things can becomes there opposite"?

 

( the heart of each lies its opposite.)

That one I don't understand...

In some YinYang/Tai Chi symbols there are 2 dots.  Black at the center of white, and White at the center of black.  So to me, that means in many cases at the heart of one thing, is another.  I was taking a tai chi class and the instructor asked us about the important of stillness.  I said stillness is at the heart of motion.. he seemed to approve.

 

In Aikido, in yoga there are times when the body stops moving yet the feeling.. the extension continues and makes for a much stronger posture.  Should our stillness be dead? or alive and alert?  that kind of stuff. 

[wandelaar]

Some more dots here:

 

[thelerner]

hmnn, is that what happens when a Buddhist turns Ghostbuster? 

[wandelaar]

Still not getting it. At the heart of it lies the opposite. But what does that mean? 

 

Can you give concrete examples of situations where you can point at the elements that are represented by the yin and yang, and the yin inside the yang, etc.

[Stosh]

53 minutes ago, thelerner said:

hmnn, is that what happens when a Buddhist turns Ghostbuster? 

In the land of my ancestors ,

When a bowling enthusiast dies , it is said their spirit continues to inhabit the ball.

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

Still not getting it. At the heart of it lies the opposite. But what does that mean?

 

Let's take a few examples:

 

- A child is born. He has his entire life ahead of him, but even then in that happy moment all in attendance know that one day he too shall die.

 

- A fire sweeps through a forest, ravaging all the life and turning it to dust. Yet, out of that dust grows new seeds, free to create a new forest.

 

- A bullet is fired into the air, flying miles above the ground. At its apex it turns and begins to fall back to earth.

 

- A rock is thrown against the ground. It hits with a thud and bounces back into the air.

 

 

Can you see how each event contains its opposite, how there is no separation of one from the other?

[Marblehead]

30 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

Can you see how each event contains its opposite, how there is no separation of one from the other?

I most times just call that "cause and effect".

 

[wandelaar]

@ Lost in Translation

 

Great! That are good examples to think about.

Edited April 20, 2018 by wandelaar

[doc benway]

7 hours ago, wandelaar said:

In what way can the concepts or symbols of yin and yang contribute to an understanding of philosophical Taoism?

 

Yin and yang aspects define one another.

Without one, there is no frame of reference to appreciate the other.

If one is always subjected to cold, never heat, cold has no meaning.

Ugliness defines beauty and vice versa.

If you spend your life in the dark, dark has no meaning... it only has meaning in relation to light... and so forth.

In this sense the two are inextricably related and also, in this sense, one is at the heart of the other as mentioned above.

 

[wandelaar]

So we have two meanings (one objective and one subjective) of there being a kernel of yin inside yang and of yang inside yin:

 

1) OBJECTIVE Things tend to change into their opposite (so things can be considered to contain the seed of there own destruction or reversal).

2) SUBJECTIVE Properties tend to be perceived by way of contrasts (when things are going steady nothing at all seems to happen and when a property is uniformly distributed there appears to be no property at all).

 

Are there any other meanings of there being a kernel of yin inside yang and of yang inside yin?

Edited April 21, 2018 by wandelaar

[dawei]

maybe intrinsic....  when One split to Two... each of the Two has the One... which makes it Two in One...

[wandelaar]

11 minutes ago, dawei said:

maybe intrinsic....  when One split to Two... each of the Two has the One... which makes it Two in One...

 

That's too cryptic for me, could you be more concrete?

Edited April 21, 2018 by wandelaar

[vonkrankenhaus]

At one level of YinYang thinking, we are using our Mind to dissect reality without any external equipment.

 

For example, we see an object - a "bucket". In front of us is One unified bucket.

 

But in our Mind we see instantly - YinYang - up/down, inside/outside, top/bottom, was/becomes, and many other polarities. Still, in front of us is One bucket.

 

We have dissected the bucket into many polarities while never taking our eyes off of its inherent and obvious Unity and Singular Presence. 

 

YinYang is seeing the interactions of any Polarity.

 

Movement between the relative poles of any polarity is Qi.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Lost in Translation]

29 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

For example, we see an object - a "bucket". In front of us is One unified bucket.

 

The real bucket is the empty space inside the bucket... 

[dawei]

47 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

That's too cryptic for me, could you be more concrete?

 

It was circular cryptic

 

One becomes Two.  Ergo, each of the Two contain the original One;  and the One contains the Two.

 

So, when One becomes Two, each of the Two have the other half by virtue of coming from the One that had both halves.

 

Not sure that is any better, but I tried. 

[dawei]

5 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

The real bucket is the empty space inside the bucket... 

 

Except without bucket, there is nothing to call 'empty space inside the bucket'...   So collectively they make up the One Unified bucket.

 

Its form and use may then be attributes of its physical vs empty components. 

[vonkrankenhaus]

40 minutes ago, dawei said:

One becomes Two.  Ergo, each of the Two contain the original One;  and the One contains the Two.

 

It's even more integrated than that.

 

One HAS two - Each one HAS an Up/Down, Left/Right, and other Polarities.

 

One never "divides" or "bifurcates" to "produce" (like a factory) Two.

 

If One "Rock" appears, it will not "divide" into "Two Rocks".
The One Rock HAS: existence/nonexistence, up/down, top/bottom, etc, etc. HAS "Two".

 

Between the "Two" of any Polarity, Movement happens. Change.

TaijiTu shows this.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[wandelaar]

Things, situations, properties, etc. can be defines both on the basis of what they are and on the basis of what they are not. Is this the intrinsic meaning of the yin and yang aspects of things, situations, properties, etc. ?

[dawei]

1 hour ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

It's even more integrated than that.

 

One HAS two - Each one HAS an Up/Down, Left/Right, and other Polarities.

 

One never "divides" or "bifurcates" to "produce" (like a factory) Two.

 

If One "Rock" appears, it will not "divide" into "Two Rocks".
The One Rock HAS: existence/nonexistence, up/down, top/bottom, etc, etc. HAS "Two".

 

Between the "Two" of any Polarity, Movement happens. Change.

TaijiTu shows this.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

that's my point.  You said it better.  thanks. 

[vonkrankenhaus]

44 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Things, situations, properties, etc. can be defines both on the basis of what they are and on the basis of what they are not. Is this the intrinsic meaning of the yin and yang aspects of things, situations, properties, etc. ?

 

Yin: Dark, Stasis, Death

Yang: Light, Movement, Life

 

Most things can be categorized using those cognates.

 

So, among phenomena, one that is more active is more Yang than a less active phenomena, and one that is less active is more Yin than a more active one.

 

In terms of growth, of people, plants, etc - one that is growing or moving faster is more Yang. One that is growing or moving less is more Yin.

 

And the one that exhibits more growth than structure is Yang (Bamboo).

One that exhibits  more structure than growth is Yin (Oak tree).

 

Light is activity - "light waves" - Yang.
Dark is absence of this activity - Yin.

 

 

 

 

- VonKrankenhaus

 

 

[thelerner]

I suppose its paradoxical thinking as is so much of Taoism, ie weak/supple and flexible is true strength, best leadership is quiet and unseen that kind of thing.  Blow on the fire to increase the flames.  Push too hard and you get the opposite of result.