Perfect Choice

[Lost in Translation]

PERFECT CHOICE

 

Imagine a twisting, winding river. Some bends are sharp, others wide. There are rapids, calm pools, and eddies.

 

Ships travel down this river. Some race, others meander. Sometimes ships turn wide and get caught up in snags below the surface. Other times they turn narrow and bump the sand bars, or get stuck in the mud. Traveling the river is not easy.

 

There is one ship that never gets caught. This ship turns perfectly, at times going fast, at other times going slow. It navigates with exact knowledge  of the river, its safety and its danger.

 

This ship travels using perfect choice. It always makes the correct decision, at the correct time, for the exact situation at hand.

 

But does this ship actually choose? If it were to make any other choice than what it already makes then that choice would not be perfect. Thus is perfect choice actually a choice at all?
 

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, Lost in Translation said:

Thus is perfect choice actually a choice at all?

 

Good question.  Let me know the next time you screw up.

 

[Rickie]

2 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

PERFECT CHOICE

 

Imagine a twisting, winding river. Some bends are sharp, others wide. There are rapids, calm pools, and eddies.

 

Ships travel down this river. Some race, others meander. Sometimes ships turn wide and get caught up in snags below the surface. Other times they turn narrow and bump the sand bars, or get stuck in the mud. Traveling the river is not easy.

 

There is one ship that never gets caught. This ship turns perfectly, at times going fast, at other times going slow. It navigates with exact knowledge  of the river, its safety and its danger.

 

This ship travels using perfect choice. It always makes the correct decision, at the correct time, for the exact situation at hand.

 

But does this ship actually choose? If it were to make any other choice than what it already makes then that choice would not be perfect. Thus is perfect choice actually a choice at all?
 

Always about choice and perfect.  Yes we have and yes we are.

 

You mean the crew chooses based on their experience?  Does their experience mean the know better than to challenge the flow?

 

Have they chosen Tao?  

[9th]

Talking about not-doing is not doing not-doing...

 

Quote

TALK IS CHEAP.

 

- ME

 

[Lost in Translation]

3 hours ago, Rickie said:

Always about choice and perfect.  Yes we have and yes we are.

 

You mean the crew chooses based on their experience?  Does their experience mean the know better than to challenge the flow?

 

Have they chosen Tao?  

 

I don't think I have communicated clearly. Let me clarify.

 

It is about choice, and it is about perfect, but it has nothing to do with whether we have or we are. And it's not about the crew, or about flow, or Tao. That's a different topic.

 

Rather I'm talking about the idea of perfection as it relates to the ability to choose. My thesis is that if one has the ability to choose then one is, by definition, not perfect. At its core a choice is between two or more options. However, if perfection is among the options then one will (as corollary to my thesis) always choose it. Since one will always choose perfection, there really isn't a choice in the matter. It's more a statement of fact.

 

So with that thesis in mind, the ship described in the original post, since it always makes perfect choices, really isn't making any choices at all. It's just being. It's the other ships that make choices, since it's the other ships that make imperfect choices (redundant).

 

 

[9th]

 

[Lost in Translation]

@9th Really? "Wah, wah - wah, wah, wan, whah, wha wa?" That's your response?

[9th]

My response?

[silent thunder]

I appreciate what you're indicating Lost...

 

Choice as beingness.    that resonates. 

[silent thunder]

In my own life, the action of choice occupies a position in process that is beneath consciousness.

 

By the time my conscious mind occupies the space, the choice has already begun its cascade into action.

 

After the fact, if I bother to consider it, my mind makes a story as to why I 'chose' an action.

 

The reality in my experience, is that my mind is allocating a story, to fit a narrative that was written before the conscious mind arrived.

 

Choice to me, happens at a level beneath the conscious mind.  We use the conscious mind to make a framework, and often to provide a sense of control and power to a process that is, innately intuitive, primal and beyond our willful control for the most part.

 

 

[Lost in Translation]

16 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

In my own life, the action of choice occupies a position in process that is beneath consciousness.

 

By the time my conscious mind occupies the space, the choice has already begun its cascade into action.

 

After the fact, if I bother to consider it, my mind makes a story as to why I 'chose' an action.

 

I have heard this described before, most recently in Robert Saltzman's book, The Ten Thousand Things. You may want to check that out.

[9th]

 

[silent thunder]

10 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I have heard this described before, most recently in Robert Saltzman's book, The Ten Thousand Things. You may want to check that out.

Nice!  I've got some time on my bum now, I'll give it a look.

 

heheh... I'm a Bum, on my bum... 

 

Here's a snippet of description from the purchase page. 

 

When I imagine speaking to a person who for the first time opens the pages of this book, I think of telling that person something like this: “You are about to read an authentic and incredibly lucid account of what it is like to live in this world as an awakened being while simultaneously functioning as a personality with all of the usual habits and peculiarities of an individual self.” Robert’s way of describing his understanding of the human existence from the point of view of an awakened personality is a revelation. His book is a fresh look at the questions that occur to anyone who thinks deeply about these matters, questions about free will, self-determination, destiny, choice, and who are we anyway.

 

Book ordered.

Edited April 23, 2018 by silent thunder
quite the description!

[9th]

 

[thelerner]

The OP reminds me of the quote: Taking the easiest course makes rivers and politicians crooked. 

 

I was on that ship.  Wasn't the boat, wasn't the captain, wasn't brains, or even choices-

twas alertness of the helmsman with a trust GPS. 

[9th]

10 hours ago, thelerner said:

The OP reminds me of the quote: Taking the easiest course makes rivers and politicians crooked. 

 

I was on that ship.  Wasn't the boat, wasn't the captain, wasn't brains, or even choices-

twas alertness of the helmsman with a trust GPS. 

 

Dont forget the missing anchor...

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, 9th said:

 

Dont forget the missing anchor...

Yeah, neat things happen in life when we cut the anchors.

 

But we still have to remain watchful.

 

[wandelaar]

On 23-4-2018 at 5:44 AM, Lost in Translation said:

Rather I'm talking about the idea of perfection as it relates to the ability to choose. My thesis is that if one has the ability to choose then one is, by definition, not perfect. At its core a choice is between two or more options. However, if perfection is among the options then one will (as corollary to my thesis) always choose it. Since one will always choose perfection, there really isn't a choice in the matter. It's more a statement of fact.[/quote]

 

If I understand correctly you are essentially saying that a perfect creature cannot have the possibility to make choices because perfect behavior doesn't allow one to deviate from the perfect path. Now there are several problems with this thesis:

1. How do you verify whether something is perfect (what are the criteria)?

2. Is there only one way to be perfect?

3. Why could not a creature that is willing and able to be perfect on the basis of it's preferences choose a perfect behavior?

 

On 23-4-2018 at 5:44 AM, Lost in Translation said:

So with that thesis in mind, the ship described in the original post, since it always makes perfect choices, really isn't making any choices at all. It's just being. It's the other ships that make choices, since it's the other ships that make imperfect choices (redundant).

 

There is no problem here. A creature willing and able to be X (fill in whatever quality you want) will choose behavior in concord with X. The being of the creature includes it's willing and being able to be X, so the choices of the creature will than naturally be in line with X.

[Lost in Translation]

34 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

1. How do you verify whether something is perfect (what are the criteria)?

 

I don't know. We could just state it as axiomatic, e.g. God is perfect. I don't know if that is acceptable though.

 

36 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

2. Is there only one way to be perfect?

 

Good point. I suppose there could be multiple options, each equally perfect. I don't know what that would look like in a complex system.

 

37 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

3. Why could not a creature that is willing and able to be perfect on the basis of it's preferences choose a perfect behavior?

 

Technically that is exactly what is happening, but if we assume there is only one perfect option then it's a choice of perfect or non-perfect. See #1, above.

 

38 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

If I understand correctly you are essentially saying that a perfect creature cannot have the possibility to make choices because perfect behavior doesn't allow one to deviate from the perfect path.

 

Yes, this is exactly what I am saying. I'm also implying that, since a perfect creature must always choose perfection, and since there is presumably only one perfect path, a perfect creature also lacks free will. Or, stated another way, a perfect creature always renders his free will over to that which is required to realize perfection.

[Lost in Translation]

6 hours ago, 9th said:

Dont forget the missing anchor...

 

Is the anchor raised or lowered? Perhaps the anchor is cut?

[Lost in Translation]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, neat things happen in life when we cut the anchors.

 

But we still have to remain watchful.

 

We especially have to remain watchful!

[9th]

Give yourself advice.  Take your own advice.  Follow your own way.  Get out of mine.  

 

Or else...

[wandelaar]

8 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

Yes, this is exactly what I am saying. I'm also implying that, since a perfect creature must always choose perfection, and since there is presumably only one perfect path, a perfect creature also lacks free will. Or, stated another way, a perfect creature always renders his free will over to that which is required to realize perfection.

It's not that the perfect creature is somehow forced to choose what it does, but that what it of itself chooses is the most reasonable thing to do given it's willingness and ability to be perfect. The same reasoning applies for instance to the willingness and ability of being a top criminal. So there is nothing particularly spiritual or heavenly about your philosophical problem.

 

You seem to demand the possibility of deviation from one's ideals before you would call something a choice. I would rather say that choices consists exactly in one's attempts at behaving in a certain manner. When those attempts perfectly succeed you can not because of that conclude that those attempts were not choices at all.

 

There is also something weird about defining a creature on the basis of the way it behaves, and then asking whether the creature could have behaved differently. Could a winner have lost? Could a truthful person have lied?

 

 

 

[Lost in Translation]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

You seem to demand the possibility of deviation from one's ideals before you would call something a choice.

 

That's not my intention. I was thinking of a thought experiment that may clarify.

 

Imagine a line, towards the left is absolute choice and towards the right is perfection.

 

Choice ---------- Perfection

 

In response to a stimulus, one can choose any number of possible responses. One's location on the above line limits the number of available choices.

 

Infinite ---------- One

 

Let's say person X falls on the far left of the spectrum. In response to a stimulus that person could choose potentially any of an infinite number of responses. In other words the response is random. If another person, say person Y falls on the far right of the spectrum, their choices are greatly limited, perhaps to only one choice.

 

Perfection falls on the absolute right end of this line. As such there is only one choice. That's all I'm really saying.

[wandelaar]

I think there is a kernel of truth in your idea. But the quality of "perfection" is too slippery  to make it rigorous.

 

In more abstract terms we can say that a creature if it wants to demonstrate a quality Q has to accept a reduction of it's spectrum S of acceptable forms of behavior. In other words the spectrum S of acceptable forms of behavior for a creature C  is a function S = S(Q) of the quality Q that C wants to exhibit. This is a however a purely logical relation, the same relation S = S(Q) holds for a sage, a criminal, a Dao Bum, or a robot for example.