Taoist rules of thumb

[Rara]

On 23/04/2018 at 10:15 PM, wandelaar said:

Use meditation to just observe your emotions as they come and go, thus weakening their grip on your life and decisions.

 

I don't think this was ever explicit in either of Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu's works.

 

Taoists also prescribe visualisation meditation, especially if one is depressed.

 

I believe that meditation would be "situation depending"

Edited April 25, 2018 by Rara
Becawwwws I wrote "depenending"

[Stosh]

13 minutes ago, Rara said:

 

I don't think this was ever explicit in either of Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu's works.

 

Taoists also prescribe visualisation meditation, especially if one is depressed.

 

I believe that meditation would be "situation depending"

I'm curious about this here too,: Where exactly does Lao or Chuang require describe or suggest meditation. ( as any of you read it ) 

[wandelaar]

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daoist_meditation

http://www.laotzu.org/meditation.html

 

But I have to admit that the original descriptions are not very clear.

[Rara]

3 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daoist_meditation

http://www.laotzu.org/meditation.html

 

But I have to admit that the original descriptions are not very clear.

 

Thanks for this, I'll have a proper read later.

 

But yes, the wiki article says in itself about "interpretations", but indeed, if I were to take Chuang Tzu's stories as an example, the basic idea is there but no exact manual.

[Starjumper]

47 minutes ago, Stosh said:

I'm curious about this here too,: Where exactly does Lao or Chuang require describe or suggest meditation. ( as any of you read it) 

 

"Empty their minds and fill their bellies". (non thinking plus energizing lower tan tien)

 

There are many other places but I'm not that conversant on chapters of the TTC.

 

There's one where he describes in detail the results of real nei kung which is 99% meditation.  (being like a child, soft bones, etc)

 

I'll leave it up to you bibliophiles who also know chi kung to fill in some more.  In fact I've read that some chi kung families have versions of the TTC which focus entirely on how the TTC addresses meditation and cultivation, in each or almost every chapter.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Starjumper

[wandelaar]

7 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

There's one where he describes in detail the results of real nei kung which is 99% meditation.  (being like a child, soft bones, etc)

 

http://tao-in-you.com/lao-tzu-tao-te-ching-chapter-10/

[Lost in Translation]

15 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

"Empty their minds and fill their bellies". (non thinking plus energizing lower tan tien)

 

I always read this as let bygones be bygone and eat a good meal.

[Starjumper]

3 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

I always read this as let bygones be bygone and eat a good meal.

 

It appears that there are many levels of interpretation available for these sayings.  Partly because of the macrocosm/microcosm connection.  As a person advances they see more and more that is referred to, "seeing signposts along the Way". 

[Starjumper]

16 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

26 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

There's one where he describes in detail the results of real nei kung which is 99% meditation.  (being like a child, soft bones, etc)

 

http://tao-in-you.com/lao-tzu-tao-te-ching-chapter-10/

 

 

That isn't the one that I was thinking of, it's much later in the book, but that chapter does touch on the meditation aspect.

 

It has been said that when the TTC refers to ruler, people, and kingdom that he is referring to different parts of the body.

[wandelaar]

1 minute ago, Starjumper said:

It has been said that when the TTC refers to ruler, people, and kingdom that he is referring to different parts of the body.

 

In that case someone else will have to search for it, because I am no good at symbolic interpretations. 

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Rara said:

 

Actually I think the OP was right first time.

 

The braggers/overdoers appear to me to be those struggling with Daoism.

 

The DDJ is a rulebook in that it's a philosophy. If you break the rules then you're following a different philosophy, right?

 

Hi Rara,

 

I`m mostly in total agreement about the bragging and the overdoing; normally, these things are signs of imbalance.  At the same time, I wouldn`t want to make a Daoist rule because I think it`s all about context.  Whose doing the bragging?  How does the bragging fit in with the person`s overall psychology?  There are cases where "bragging" is exactly the right thing to do, where it`s a move towards harmony....wu wei bragging, if you will.  Take my mom, for example.  She`s a very introverted, demure person.  She never makes a spectacle of herself and shys away from anything she would consider bragging.  Lately, however, she`s been coming out of her shell a bit.  She`s been increasingly willing to let other people see all the good things she does, not to hide her abilities and talents.  This is a move I wholeheartedly applaud!  For her to attempt to follow a no-bragging rule would stunt this healing process of embodying herself more fully and being a powerful person in the world.

 

I see "overdoing it" the same way.  Mostly people tend towards too much overdoing and would do well to moderate their activities.  Many of us have too much food, do too much exercise, too much Facebook...and on and on.  And yet there are plenty of people who err on the side of over-caution, people who live overly strict and confining lives.  For these people, a little "overdoing it" might be exactly the right medicine.  Ideally, of course, we want to neither under nor over do things.  But to get to that point some people will need to occasionally overdo things in order to eventually find their balance.

 

Context is everything, and for this reason it`s hard to codify universal rules.  For me, Daoism is about being in a centered place where I feel open and free so that I can spontaneously do what`s right in a given situation.  Even if what`s right appears to be breaking the rules.

 

LL

[wandelaar]

I am getting kind of tired of this ritualized rule-bashing. It looks like many reactions are delivered on automatic pilot. He there! Some guy is proposing rules! Lets put an end to it! But my list of rules of thumb ended with the rule:

 

Quote

- Don't limit yourself to (these) rules of thumb when you see another appropriate way of proceeding.

 

So what's the problem? It is just some rules you may or may not follow depending on circumstances. And furthermore: I didn't invent those rules, they are modernized paraphrases of recommendations  made by Lao tse and Chuang tse. Two (possibly legendary) founding fathers of Taoism. So there is every reason to call those rules Taoist. That is - unless my interpretations of those rules are wrong or my list is seriously incomplete. And that is why I started this topic: to ask for comments on the correctness and completeness of the Taoist list of rules of thumb.

[Marblehead]

I actually like the concept of "rule of thumb" because I liken them to what Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu did.  They presented us with many "if, then" situations.  There are no commandments - there are guidelines, or perhaps words of guidance.

 

So for anyone to make a list of these guidelines is engaged in a valid exercise as long as we do not misquote or misrepresent what the two Tzu's said.

 

It's also good to have guidelines in one's personal life.  Even I while in my Anarchical mentality I still have personal "rules of thumb".

 

[wandelaar]

Thank you! Indeed, I purposely called them rules of thumb to avoid the idea of absolute moral obligations. It's still we who do or do not choose to follow those rules of thumb.

[Stosh]

2 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Thank you! Indeed, I purposely called them rules of thumb to avoid the idea of absolute moral obligations. It's still we who do or do not choose to follow those rules of thumb.

Not much of a rule , if you are all willy-nilly about it,   notice Mh didnt actually endorse any of them. 

[liminal_luke]

48 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

I am getting kind of tired of this ritualized rule-bashing.

 

 

So what's the problem? 

 

I prefer to see the bums in this thread who have spoken up in opposition to rules (including myself) as merely sharing our thoughts.  But perhaps I`ve unknowingly stepped into an orgy of mindless ritualized rule-bashing?  Many of us, I dare say, are old hands at the Rebel Rodeo.  Even Marblehead, a man not known for an absence of opinion.  What could be more nonconformist than an anarchist in favor of "rules of thumb"?

[Stosh]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I prefer to see the bums in this thread who have spoken up in opposition to rules (including myself) as merely sharing our thoughts.  But perhaps I`ve unknowingly stepped into an orgy of mindless ritualized rule-bashing?  Many of us, I dare say, are old hands at the Rebel Rodeo.  Even Marblehead, a man not known for an absence of opinion.  What could be more nonconformist than an anarchist in favor of "rules of thumb"?

Yeah ! , Any rule bashing that I may have done was purely spontaneous and non-rule based.

[Marblehead]

But let's not confuse the concept of "rules of thumb" with the concept of trying to be "politically correct".  That would be an error.

 

[silent thunder]

I'm with liminal... folks share from their perspective.  I haven't read an account in this thread declaring you wrong.  It's just a conversation. 

 

Incidentally, the rule of thumb is a phrase derived from an actual human law.  When it was legal to 'discipline' your wife, by beating her with a stick no bigger than the width of your thumb.

 

 

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, silent thunder said:

Incidentally, the rule of thumb is a phrase derived from an actual human law.  When it was legal to 'discipline' your wife, by beating her with a stick no bigger than the width of your thumb.

 

 

I wish that was still legal when I was married.

 

[wandelaar]

@ Stosh

 

That is not the point here. And rule of thumb is just the best term I could find. The rules in effect suggest ways of operating. Nothing more and nothing less. In fact it's somewhat the same as if a friend who's general approach to life you appreciate, recommended you to proceed in a certain manner. There is no moral obligation involved, and you don't have follow up the advise. But that doesn't make it any less valuable.

Edited April 25, 2018 by wandelaar

[Stosh]

1 minute ago, wandelaar said:

That is not the point here. And rule of thumb is just the best term I could find. The rules in effect suggest ways of operating. Nothing more and nothing less. In fact it's the somewhat the same as if a friend who's general approach to life you appreciate, recommended you to proceed in a certain manner. There is no moral obligation involved, and you don't have follow up the advise. But that doesn't make it any less valuable.

I think that's generally understood that you meant it that way, but , lets take a concrete example , Some people appreciate and endorse political correctness , while others ,, kind of feel its blowing smoke up ones ass , an insult , lacking trust and familiarity. Should the wise ones have pointed us in that direction? or is that a thing to be relegated to ones personal stance in life , their experiences and judgement...

[liminal_luke]

15 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

But let's not confuse the concept of "rules of thumb" with the concept of trying to be "politically correct".  That would be an error.

 

 

14 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

 

Incidentally, the rule of thumb is a phrase derived from an actual human law.  When it was legal to 'discipline' your wife, by beating her with a stick no bigger than the width of your thumb.

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I wish that was still legal when I was married.

 

 

Marblehead,

 

I was about to write up a satirical post pretending to put out an arrest warrant accusing you of the crime of polical correctness  Upon further consideration, I think I`ll let it slide.

[wandelaar]

@ Stosh

 

That's an entirely different question. I don't even claim the Taoist rules of thumb to be wise. And there may be lots of situations that are not covered by the list. But that's all beside the point. I'm only trying to collect them in a list for further consideration.

 

[Stosh]

4 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

@ Stosh

 

That's an entirely different question. I don't even claim the Taoist rules of thumb to be wise. And there may be lots of situations that are not covered by the list. But that's all beside the point. I'm only trying to collect them in a list for further consideration.

 

I am sure you will be able to tabulate , a whole gamut of opinions  about what Lao and Chuang would, or would not, have endorsed  as good ideas. But I hold to the opinion that they tended to ... leave the angles open. Its in fact characteristic of the canon that one can spin the chapters to gainsay the overt point that may seem foremost, in a way , which even I cant do with the work of other sources. So I hold they intended it that way. (just Try it with Tsun tzu !)