Taoist rules of thumb

[Rara]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Hi Rara,

 

I`m mostly in total agreement about the bragging and the overdoing; normally, these things are signs of imbalance.  At the same time, I wouldn`t want to make a Daoist rule because I think it`s all about context.  Whose doing the bragging?  How does the bragging fit in with the person`s overall psychology?  There are cases where "bragging" is exactly the right thing to do, where it`s a move towards harmony....wu wei bragging, if you will.  Take my mom, for example.  She`s a very introverted, demure person.  She never makes a spectacle of herself and shys away from anything she would consider bragging.  Lately, however, she`s been coming out of her shell a bit.  She`s been increasingly willing to let other people see all the good things she does, not to hide her abilities and talents.  This is a move I wholeheartedly applaud!  For her to attempt to follow a no-bragging rule would stunt this healing process of embodying herself more fully and being a powerful person in the world.

 

I see "overdoing it" the same way.  Mostly people tend towards too much overdoing and would do well to moderate their activities.  Many of us have too much food, do too much exercise, too much Facebook...and on and on.  And yet there are plenty of people who err on the side of over-caution, people who live overly strict and confining lives.  For these people, a little "overdoing it" might be exactly the right medicine.  Ideally, of course, we want to neither under nor over do things.  But to get to that point some people will need to occasionally overdo things in order to eventually find their balance.

 

Context is everything, and for this reason it`s hard to codify universal rules.  For me, Daoism is about being in a centered place where I feel open and free so that I can spontaneously do what`s right in a given situation.  Even if what`s right appears to be breaking the rules.

 

LL

 

Thanks for clarifying. Can't (and wouldn't want to) argue with that.

[liminal_luke]

Wandelaar,

 

You started another thread with the astute observation that early Daoist writings abound with paradoxes.  Could this be because they held the view that reality itself is paradoxical?  I think so.

 

Anyway, I think your threads play beautifully against each other.  The resistance you`re noticing towards rule making has everything to do with a worldview that refuses to pin things down as being this way or that way, a worldview that instead embraces the idea that to grok the universe one has to go beyond rational thought altogether.

[Lost in Translation]

41 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

grok the universe

 

Michael Valentine Smith approves of this! 

[Stosh]

From the originator of the word Grok, synchronicitically...

 

"When probed by readers to expand on his presumed solutions for fixing the world, Heinlein had trouble disguising his frustration. On one occasion, he expressed his feelings by saying: “I was not giving answers. I was trying to shake the reader loose from some preconceptions and induce him to think for himself, along new and fresh lines. In consequence, each reader gets something different out of that book because he himself supplies the answers. It is an invitation to think, not to believe.” 

[wandelaar]

@ liminal luke

Don't think I have much more to say on this topic. It has degenerated into silly nitpicking about words. The rules of thumb it was to be about are derived from Lao tse and Chuang tse themselves who had no problem at all with illustrating their approach of life by way of rules of thumb and stories about what to do. So I expected some interesting posts from people studying and practicing Taoism. And it started out well, but soon the sheer idea of "rules" (in whatever form) proved too much to swallow for some Bums. And as a result the discussion of Taoism in the spirit of Lao tse and Chuang tse was effectively drowned in claims that nothing concrete can be said about Taoism, Taoist rules of thumb, or a Taoist way of life. But Lao tse and Chuang tse did just that!

 

It's time to stop and accept that the topic has run its course. Nothing more is to be expected. To bad, but that's life.

[thelerner]

closed.. i haven't had a whack at it yet. 

 

My Taoist rule of thumb,

A Taoist sees the world(& problems) as part of a whole. 

A systems that ebbs and flows like the seasons. 

They are patient and willing to nurture seeds

that will grow to solve the problems naturally. 

 

[Starjumper]

Those rules of thumb are just common sense rules that most wiser people would recognize as having value, even some fundamentalists would see that some of them have value, the rules do not belong to Taoism per se.

 

Interestingly though, the TTC also contains a lot of common sense that most wiser people would recognize as having value, even some fundamentalists would see that some of them have value.  The main difference between Taoism and other systems is that Taoism keeps it simple and straightforward while other systems like to dress up common sense in heaps of dogmatic BS.

 

 

[wandelaar]

16 minutes ago, thelerner said:

closed.. i haven't had a whack at it yet.

 

Well - it has not officially been closed.

 

Thanks for your additions.

[Boundlesscostfairy]

I believe that all it takes to be a good Taoist is the follow the energy of a particular thing..without straining the mind..and disbelieving..

 

But you better believe it when it is shown to you..to go down that narrow direction from which the energy is calling you to go..!

[Marblehead]

Marblehead's rule of thumb:  When hungry, eat; when tired, rest.

 

After that:

 

Go chop more wood and get more water.

 

 

 

[wandelaar]

18 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Marblehead's rule of thumb:  When hungry, eat; when tired, rest.

 

After that:

 

Go chop more wood and get more water.

 

I like that one. And it would probably suffice for a hermit.

[Wu Ming Jen]

There is an exception to every rule. There are no absolutes. yin is within yang and yang is within yin they (energies)  are mostly themselves but not absolute. Change, situations, living and dynamic. If rules are absolute then it is a dead system meaning the living dynamic process has been removed.

 

"Rules of thumb" besides being a very dark conception into our language may be true but not absolute. Follow Tao and rules vanish to dust rules do not apply to us personally the rules are us. Be exceptional and set the rules and examples for others to follow.  lift up humanity for everyone to remember our divine true self..

[Rocky Lionmouth]

14 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I wish that was still legal when I was married.

 

 

Oh man, you would have caught such sore lumps on that marble of yours 😂

[Rocky Lionmouth]

@wandelaar

 

i get the feeling you’re not liking the nitpickety of words and i can definetly relate. I quite enjoyed your list and found it loose enough to pass my rule-allergy.

However, since we’re talking both Chuang and Lao dont confuse hard stands of semantics with spinning off eachothers formulations, it’s pretty common in daoist conversation to use both humorism and play of nuance to approximate something that is both undescribable and also very hard to estimate roughly.

 

As a general principle for me i’d say what Rara and Luke were on about was a pretty deep truth regarding Dao and it’s isms: context and participants are crucial and key pivotal points in everything.

Look at chinese martial arts that have Dao Lu, or forms/kata, those are illustrations of principles, conversational parleurs, conditioning, typefonts of writing with bodies, geometrical cross-sections and exercise all woven into one. The tricky part is extracting only one aspect of them and foregoing the others or trying to be too general where specifics are concerned. Stuff is intermingled on very minute levels and shifting kinetic lines, spin and resultant force vectors by a few millimeters or degrees affect the overall interaction dramatically.

 

I think some of those voicing variations or resistance to your organizational initiative are really stoked about the work you do and really want to add and discuss it and further it. Personally i haven’t seen any fingers pointed, but bums are often direct in their approach, except when they get all old-sagey and talk riddles like newspapers give headlines if you know what im saying?

 

Have faith, you’re in good company, i promise.

[wandelaar]

On 23-4-2018 at 11:15 PM, wandelaar said:

- Don't limit yourself to (these) rules of thumb when you see another appropriate way of proceeding.

 

Still wondering why people keep on telling me what I already said myself in the very first post that started this topic....

[Stosh]

6 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Still wondering why people keep on telling me what I already said myself in the very first post that started this topic....

Because , to the degree that you or someone would 'follow' the rules , that person is manifesting the rule. And to the degree that someone ignores the rule , then that rule is not manifested.

  'Rule of thumb' is a fake proposition, you cant eat that cake and have it too.

It's not sinking in , that - that which you are patiently  being told from multiple people,( with hugely different mindsets, coming from totally different angles) ,is that the DDJ isnt a set of ten commandments even if one blows-it- off at the sign of slightest friction.  

The idea is that you make your own rules and apply them as you think right ,  to satisfy your nature , your  dao. 

 

 

[silent thunder]

we are human beings, not human thinkings, or human doings.

 

being.

 

As for absolutes, there are no absolutes for me aside from one that I still can't shake after years of chipping away at it.

 

I am aware.

 

That seems steadfast enough to perhaps be considered one potential rule to me.

 

To participate in any conversation of what constitutes a rule, I must first be aware.

[wandelaar]

@ Stosh

 

You still don't get it? I am not proposing the rules of thumb to be considered as commandments. And yes, Lao tse did illustrate his way of life with rules of thumb, Chuang tse used stories. You may not like it and you're free to create your own way. But this topic is not about your way, it's about the rules of thumb used by Lao tse and Chuang tse. And those rules of thumb don't suddenly disappear if you (or even the majority of Bums) don't like them. But we have been through that discussion before, and I don't plan to do it again. 

[Stosh]

1 minute ago, wandelaar said:

@ Stosh

 

You still don't get it? I am not proposing the rules of thumb to be considered as commandments. And yes, Lao tse did illustrate his way of life with rules of thumb, Chuang tse used stories. You may not like it and you're free to create your own way. But this topic is not about your way, it's about the rules of thumb used by Lao tse and Chuang tse. And those rules of thumb don't suddenly disappear if you (or even the majority of Bums) don't like them. But we have been through that discussion before, and I don't plan to do it again. 

I give up , you win. Good luck getting your rules of thumb in order . No hard feelings. 

[wandelaar]

I haven't won, and you haven't won. But happily we were both wise enough to stop when continuing would have been useless.

[Stosh]

4 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

I haven't won, and you haven't won. But happily we were both wise enough to stop when continuing would have been useless.

  Well,,, it would have been useful to you ,  if you had seen your way , my way.

I never had nothing to gain or lose. 

[wandelaar]

To bad I followed the rule "don't overdo things", now I will have to continue living life my way instead of your way. Or am I living it your way after all just because I am following my way?

[Stosh]

8 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

To bad I followed the rule "don't overdo things", now I will have to continue living life my way instead of your way. Or am I living it your way after all just because I am following my way?

I figure it works out the same , Tao is nothing if not paradoxical and ironic. Cheers

[wandelaar]

1 minute ago, Stosh said:

I figure it works out the same , Tao is nothing if not paradoxical and ironic. Cheers

 

It was meant to be a joke, but I guess it carries more truth then appears on first sight.

[Stosh]

3 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

It was meant to be a joke, but I guess it carries more truth then appears on first sight.

Gains can be chalked up as losses , " those who apprehend the tao laugh."