Is being a Daoist for the well off

[Mig]

Just wondering if becoming a Daoist practitioners is for people who are well off financially and have the gut to say, I retire and live life in a simple way. Or do we know Daoist practitioners who came from the hood and lived hardship all their lives? Just wondering.

[silent thunder]

Wang Li Ping described three types of Taoist practitioners.

 

Mountain, Temple and Family.

 

Mountain practice full time and live in seclusion.

Temple practice full time, live at temple and blend with society a bit.

Family practice when they can, blending their practice with their life.

 

edit to add:  He also said that those who practice will advance and likened practice of this nature to making a new path through the woods.  With repetition the path becomes cleared, established.

Edited April 24, 2018 by silent thunder

[9th]

7 hours ago, Mig said:

Just wondering if becoming a Daoist practitioners is for people who are well off financially and have the gut to say, I retire and live life in a simple way. Or do we know Daoist practitioners who came from the hood and lived hardship all their lives? Just wondering.

 

Quote

Q:

So, yo tip, what's up with the boot on your feet?

A:

I've got the timbos on the toes and this is how it goes:

“Oh...

one, two,

oh my god...”

One two, oh my god, I've got some shit

I've got the kung fu grip behind my green trap kit
Never ever ever smoking crack
Never ever ever fucking wack
I eat the fuckin' pineapple now & laters

Listen to me now, don't listen to me later
Fuck it 'cause I know I didn't make it fuckin' rhyme for real
But, yo - technically I'm as hard as steel

Gonna get it together,

watch it,

gonna get it together

ma bell

I'm like ma bell,

I've got the ill communications

 

 

[Marblehead]

Well, for sure, I wouldn't be able to live the life I live if I wasn't already retired and secure with my retirement income.

 

I can't imagine myself living in a mountain cave or some temple.  I need to be able to flap my wings.

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

*grabs the mic, hesitates on a start but takes the plunge*

 

Next on after Lao Zoeng Marble-head

brung the truth with no stress:

from down south enter Lionmouth

preach and press

display true grit when i bless

numinous energy held inside nonetheless

@9th runnup in the place

quote for days, displace with graces

observe the wording of parables stated

contextualize it nice, get the picture right?

bumpin on some predominantly hood shit

for description and a giggles bit

but what about rappers who got it made and shit

Daoists who got paid and shit

explain the rhymin dao zhang slang canon fo me

is you selling scrolls or prosellatyzin homey?

Do the knowledge sonny

Is you dissin stacks or is you blazing ghost money?

My ass decline the line where cash is honey

wether you mountaineer, temple dwell 

Or scruffy ruffin in a roach motel

ya living in the jungles, planetary skills is ill

read the world like from trigammatic change and spill

harmonize, tonalize and immortalize

Wherever bums may roam

salute the dome and circular

observe beizer curving perpendicular

Right to left like the ventricular

increase the aligned flow fo sho

increase the peace

walk like true mankind and understand the beast

5000 Rocky out, peace!

 

*wants to mic-drop but then remembers he might be liable for service costs to the equipment so he places the mic back on the booth carefully*

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Lataif]

Sort of related:

 

A society needs prosperity . . . before it can generate enough people

with enough leisure time . . . to make advances in spirituality.

 

America after WW2 . . . is the example most of us are living through.

 

Awfully fortunate, in historic terms . . . 

[Lost in Translation]

I work for a living and practice all day, every day. If I did not practice I wouldn't be able to function, living in a big city as I do. Cave living sounds heavenly, but I have bills to pay, and miles to go before I sleep.

[Mig]

1 hour ago, Lataif said:

Sort of related:

 

A society needs prosperity . . . before it can generate enough people

with enough leisure time . . . to make advances in spirituality.

 

America after WW2 . . . is the example most of us are living through.

 

Awfully fortunate, in historic terms . . . 

If I look in Chinese history, it seems Daoist were popular when there was prosperity and those who were Daoist practitioners were not from impoverished areas, at least the intellectuals. Today, I don't see Daoists teaching as popular in remote areas but in cities as spirituality getaway. Don't know if those are true Daoist practitioners.

[Mig]

1 hour ago, Lost in Translation said:

I work for a living and practice all day, every day. If I did not practice I wouldn't be able to function, living in a big city as I do. Cave living sounds heavenly, but I have bills to pay, and miles to go before I sleep.

I thought the majority of people work to live and some other live to work. What do you practice, if I may ask? Are you saying you are in a Paycheck to paycheck  situation?

[Lost in Translation]

17 minutes ago, Mig said:

I thought the majority of people work to live and some other live to work. What do you practice, if I may ask? Are you saying you are in a Paycheck to paycheck  situation?

 

No, fortunately. I have a good career, but I still need to work.

 

What I mean is that my practice is not something I "do when I have time". Rather, it is a fundamental part of my life, like breathing and eating. As for how I practice, that is mainly mindfulness. I seek awareness. I also meditate, either walking or sitting. And I follow my thoughts everywhere they lead, and I feel my emotions. By feel I mean experience them, richly and deeply. Pain and fear are excellent teachers, as is love and joy. But don't let them carry you away, and don't neglect them either. In other words - live!

[windwalker]

On 4/24/2018 at 11:47 AM, Mig said:

Just wondering if becoming a Daoist practitioners is for people who are well off financially and have the gut to say, I retire and live life in a simple way. Or do we know Daoist practitioners who came from the hood and lived hardship all their lives? Just wondering.

 

Supreme good is like water.

Water greatly benefits all things, without conflict.

It flows through places that people loathe.

Thereby it is close to the Way.

A good dwelling is on the ground.

A good mind is deep.

A good gift is kind.

A good word is sincere.

A good ruler is just.

A good worker is able.

A good deed is timely.

Where there is no conflict, there is no fault.

 

 

Edited April 25, 2018 by windwalker

[Marblehead]

Too bad Bruce didn't follow his own advice.  He would have lived a lot longer.

 

[Boundlesscostfairy]

I'm really well off spiritually..so I can say with truth that the way works for me always...which is what being a Taoist is all about!

 

But as far as Golden riches? I have yet to find that ultimate pay check..but I can manage to go from month to month without complaint..

[windwalker]

36 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Too bad Bruce didn't follow his own advice.  He would have lived a lot longer.

 

 

It's not the amount of time one lives. But the amount of life that one puts in time

[Marblehead]

12 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

It's not the amount of time one lives. But the amount of life that one puts in time

I accept your alternate perspective.  

[Mig]

9 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

No, fortunately. I have a good career, but I still need to work.

 

What I mean is that my practice is not something I "do when I have time". Rather, it is a fundamental part of my life, like breathing and eating. As for how I practice, that is mainly mindfulness. I seek awareness. I also meditate, either walking or sitting. And I follow my thoughts everywhere they lead, and I feel my emotions. By feel I mean experience them, richly and deeply. Pain and fear are excellent teachers, as is love and joy. But don't let them carry you away, and don't neglect them either. In other words - live!

 

9 hours ago, windwalker said:

 

Supreme good is like water.

Water greatly benefits all things, without conflict.

It flows through places that people loathe.

Thereby it is close to the Way.

A good dwelling is on the ground.

A good mind is deep.

A good gift is kind.

A good word is sincere.

A good ruler is just.

A good worker is able.

A good deed is timely.

Where there is no conflict, there is no fault.

 

 

DDJ Chapter 8

1The highest goodness resembles water
2Water greatly benefits myriad things without contention
3It stays in places that people dislike
4Therefore it is similar to the Tao (Derek Lin translation)

I think there is more in the interpretation and commentary on this one. But water, water is necessary to our survival but not many in this world has access to water like in some countries. Then flooding or tsunamis are not examples I can follow because I am insignificant in the water.

[Mig]

6 hours ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

 I have yet to find that ultimate pay check..but I can manage to go from month to month without complaint..

Why do you have to find that ultimate pay check if you manage well your money?

[Rara]

Rhetorical question alert:

 

To learn Daoism from those with heritage or a lineage of "credibility", where do you go and how much does it cost you?

[silent thunder]

In money?  A few thousand dollars spread out over a couple decades.

In time and effort practicing?  In emotional mind based stories and intellectual seeking?   Thousands of hours.

Cost reaches far beyond money.

 

Money equals options to me.  When I have money, because my society values it, I can exchange money (which in and of itself sustains no life, it cannot be eaten, drunk, nor used medicinally), for that which has real value to sustaining life... food, safe housing and medicine when required...

 

But to me the real question is what has value? 

what is value?

 

It is remarkably valuable to me, that I wake each day without any nagging, long term aches and pains any more, in spite of decades of rock climbing, martial arts and working in construction for film and television along with several surgeries and major injuries over that time that at one point, had me living in chronic pain for years. 

 

The value of not having had a cold or flu in almost a decade is very high.

 

The value of no longer taking the world personally is uncountable.  The emotional stability of no longer identifying with illusary senses of self whose contentment and misery were dependent upon external forces.   The value of no longer having my experience of life being determined by the words and actions of others, or by the pleasantness of my direct environment is indeterminably valuable. 

 

The cost for this... I've been adding it up in my head as I've been writing this.  Around $6500.00 US, spread out over 25 years.

 

The value of this... uncountable.

[Chá Rén 茶人]

Historically, per the Yellow Turban Rebellion/Way of 5 Pecks of Rice, etc. in the Han Dynasty, Taoist practices were a way to rebel against society and survive with detrimental bureaucratic practices in place (excessive taxes and lack of available land for lower classes, etc.).

 

You don't need the government, or money, or anything, if you can wander into the remote mountains and live on rare herbs and pine trees. 

 

Conversely, the Tao can also be abused, temporarily, to gain worldly power and material wealth. 

There are severely adverse consequences to this path if done with self-benefit in-mind. 

 

 

In the end, the 'fettered mind', one obsessed with gain and loss, is not Tao.

 

This is easier to preach about than actually achieve, however. 

[Mig]

10 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Too bad Bruce didn't follow his own advice.  He would have lived a lot longer.

 

It seems he had lived enough or he got caught in his own game of death

Edited April 25, 2018 by Mig
typo

[Walker]

On 4/24/2018 at 11:47 AM, Mig said:

Just wondering if becoming a Daoist practitioners is for people who are well off financially and have the gut to say, I retire and live life in a simple way. Or do we know Daoist practitioners who came from the hood and lived hardship all their lives? Just wondering.

 

Having affinity for Daoism has nothing to do with one's financial situation. I know some Daoists who came from what we could probably call grinding poverty, deep in very poor parts of China's countryside where people to this day still make do on a few hundreds dollars a year. I also know practitioners who come from backgrounds that, by comparison, qualify for the word "rich." I can't say I know any mega rich Daoists (USD millionaires and up), but I don't see why there couldn't be any.

 

"Living life in a simple way" and "living in hardship all one's life" are not contradictory things; nor are "living life in a simple way" and "living in material comfort all one's life." Simplicity is by and large a mental state, which, maintained, affects jing, qi, and shen. The question is how poverty or wealth affect a practitioner's mind. I think...

-If a person  is poor to the degree of being unable to stave off hunger and the elements, and faces an inability to mix in with society (i.e., no clean clothes, no place to shower, no transportation, way to find work or an education, etc), then it is probably unlikely that this person will be able to quiet his or her mind enough to practice well, unless this is a very rare person who has chosen a renunciate path, a Sun Bu'er, Ma Danyang, or Qiu Chuji type. 

-A person who is poor in comparison to his or her society but has no problems with nutrition, housing, and satisfying the human need for social contact could be in an excellent position for cultivating the Dao.

-Ditto for a middle class person or a rich person. But if the mind of the middle class or rich person cannot find rest, then again, it will always be difficult to practice. 

 

No matter what your background, entering into Daoism in some way or another will not sever your ties with your past, even if you become a monk or a nun in China. I know monks and nuns whose families are poorer than they are who feel pressure to make money in this or that way or help their family members get menial jobs or at least meals and bedrooms at their temples or what have you. Whether or not this sort of thing affects one's cultivation again comes down to one's mentality; certainly family and societal issues can be challenging for even richly experienced practitioners. I also know monks (I can't think of any nuns in this category off the top of my head, but I'm sure they're out there) who, upon realizing that talismans or fortune telling can be very lucrative, get carried away by the paper chase. Again, their troubles boil down to mentality. Regularly reading and reflecting upon the classics with a sincere mind helps tremendously in keeping one grounded.

 

As for studying, well, there are teachers out there who charge an arm and a leg for their techniques. There are teachers out there who charge very low tuition fees, are by donation only, or who teach for free. There are even teachers out there who, identifying needy and sincere students, give money to those students to help them on their paths. I have encountered more than one teacher in each category.

 

Ultimately it could be argued that most of the "real teachings" are already out there for free, but there aren't many people who can see them for what they are, put them into proper use, and take the path to fruition without the help of teachers. It certainly helps not to be indigent while you are on the path of a seeker and then an early- to mid-stage practitioner. But it also helps to view money with some detachment.

 

This will sound New Agey, but I learned it from a Daoist twelve years ago and experience has borne out truth in these words: money is just another form of energy. So, let some flow away, more will flow towards you. An empty vessel is easily refilled, eh? 

 

But if you're starving or can't afford heating in the winter, then a more yang approach may be necessary. 

[Michael Sternbach]

On 24.4.2018 at 1:54 PM, Marblehead said:

Well, for sure, I wouldn't be able to live the life I live if I wasn't already retired and secure with my retirement income.

 

I can't imagine myself living in a mountain cave or some temple.  I need to be able to flap my wings.

 

 

...and pound on your chest.

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

...and pound on your chest.

This is what happened when I was much younger:

 

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=palemoon&q=Baby+Gorilla+fail&ia=videos&iax=videos&iai=vA9DGgDTM4M

[Rara]

On 25/04/2018 at 6:33 PM, silent thunder said:

In money?  A few thousand dollars spread out over a couple decades.

In time and effort practicing?  In emotional mind based stories and intellectual seeking?   Thousands of hours.

Cost reaches far beyond money.

 

Money equals options to me.  When I have money, because my society values it, I can exchange money (which in and of itself sustains no life, it cannot be eaten, drunk, nor used medicinally), for that which has real value to sustaining life... food, safe housing and medicine when required...

 

But to me the real question is what has value? 

what is value?

 

It is remarkably valuable to me, that I wake each day without any nagging, long term aches and pains any more, in spite of decades of rock climbing, martial arts and working in construction for film and television along with several surgeries and major injuries over that time that at one point, had me living in chronic pain for years. 

 

The value of not having had a cold or flu in almost a decade is very high.

 

The value of no longer taking the world personally is uncountable.  The emotional stability of no longer identifying with illusary senses of self whose contentment and misery were dependent upon external forces.   The value of no longer having my experience of life being determined by the words and actions of others, or by the pleasantness of my direct environment is indeterminably valuable. 

 

The cost for this... I've been adding it up in my head as I've been writing this.  Around $6500.00 US, spread out over 25 years.

 

The value of this... uncountable.

 

Where did you train, if you don't mind me asking?

 

But this is what I meant. As far as I'm aware, to get the "real stuff", you gotta find it and pay some good dollar. The origins of these techniques though were surely practiced by the poor though, no?