Is being a Daoist for the well off

[wandelaar]

@ Daemon

 

Poetry and mythology don't mean much to me, so things might work differently for other people. But let me explain what I do. I repeatedly try to rationally understand the texts of the Tao Te Ching and the Chuang Tse as best as I can. That is the learning/ training phase. And then I go about the usual business of life (or go to sleep if it's time to) and don't think or reason about it any more. It then often happens that the meaning of the text I studied before but was unable to understand suddenly becomes clear when I'm doing something completely unrelated (like taking a walk, drinking thee, might be anything). That's the letting go phase. It's no different from the way creative scientists work. Not saying I'm one of them. I gave that a try, but dropped out and failed.

Edited April 30, 2018 by wandelaar

[Daemon]

Thanks!

 

I'll pick this up by taking that to another thread if it's OK wth you (because I don't want to hijack this interesting discussion)?

 

☮️

Edited April 30, 2018 by Daemon

[wandelaar]

That's OK with me. And I would like to know how it is for people who appreciate poetry and mythology in their body. Is it like appreciating music?

[Daemon]

I'll pick that up as well.

 

(Apologies to the OP for the slight detour off topic.)

 

☮️

Edited April 30, 2018 by Daemon

[silent thunder]

6 hours ago, Rara said:

 

Thanks Silent Thunder. Do these two still reside in Wudang?

 

Master Zhou has lived in Southern California and had a clinic in Santa Monica for many years.  I first met and began studying with him at a weekend retreat up in Santa Cruz, near San Francisco in 2011 around his 80th birthday. 

 

A few years ago, he founded his permanent school and clinic (complete with rooms for students to stay in, who travel to study) in El Monte which is a bit further inland from Santa Monica, but still local, only an hour from me in the South Bay.  He now travels regularly between China and the US and is in no place for too long these days.  His school though, is run full time by his second Master Linda Wu and another teacher whom I haven't met.  Master Wu is an incredibly powerful woman and his second for 18 years or more... I have had healing from her several years ago and it was subsequently her from whom I learned the second form in the system when the practice was still located in Santa Monica. 

 

Master Wang lives in China, I do not recall which city, though he and Master Liao, (his second and translator), make several trips a year, offering retreats in various cities around the globe.  When I met and studied with Master Wang, the retreat was local here, in Diamond Bar just a few towns over from El Monte and a short 45 minute drive from my home.  

[Lost in Translation]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Lao tse has his chapter about the small village where people live a simple modest life and don't desire anything else, so I think there is reason to believe Lao tse would have though it important to adapt our life's circumstances (when that's possible) with an eye on making it easier to life a Taoist life.

 

I'm glad you mentioned this. How does "adapt[ing] our life's circumstances ... with an eye on making it easier to life a Taoist life" equate to hermetic living? I completely agree that rural life can be peaceful. All things equal I do desire that kind of life. But peaceful and following the way are not the same thing. One can argue that it is the constant pressure of urban life that fuels the desire to follow Tao, since if urban life were relaxing we would have no need to go within in the first place. That's really what I am saying.

[wandelaar]

I think it's a two track process:

 

1) You try to become independent of life's circumstances as far as possible, but naturally will not completely succeed. After all we are human beings, and not immortals.

 

2) You try to arrange your life's circumstances in such a way that it will be possible for you as a non-perfect Taoist to life a Taoist life (as far as it goes).

 

When a sports man follows a training regime that's too heavy given his constitution, available time and energy he will no longer progress but actually get worse at what he is trying to achieve. In the same way an aspiring Taoist should not overdo his training in the misguided quest of becoming something of an immortal superman. So placing yourself in circumstances that you are not yet ready to bear, will probably result in you becoming even less able to do so in the future.  

[Rara]

5 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Excellent question.  I think that this is one of the concepts where the difference between Taoism and Buddhism can be easily seen.

 

Lao Tzu isn't very descriptive about this but Chuang Tzu is.

 

 

Do Taoists strike you as more "social animals" than Buddhists, by any chance?

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, Rara said:

 

Do Taoists strike you as more "social animals" than Buddhists, by any chance?

In the most part, yes.  But I do realize that Buddhism teaches compassion and acceptance but I've not seen where they are allowed to just sit down with others and BS.  I'm a BS kind of guy.

 

[Rara]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I think it is not enough to read the Tao Te Ching (or Chuang tse) once or twice, one has to read the chapters over and over again until they become thoroughly familiar. Eventually you will kind of automatically think of the relevant texts when they are needed. (I'm not there yet, but it's getting better. I still needed a good night's rest to come up with the village-chapter.)

 

If we have interpreted these correctly, that is! I've misunderstood things from the texts MAJORLY in the past. I'm a lot better these days, I just gotta be careful not to think I understand when I don't. If I don't know the answer, raise my hand etc etc.

[Rara]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

@ Daemon

 

Poetry and mythology don't mean much to me, so things might work differently for other people. But let me explain what I do. I repeatedly try to rationally understand the texts of the Tao Te Ching and the Chuang Tse as best as I can. That is the learning/ training phase. And then I go about the usual business of life (or go to sleep if it's time to) and don't think or reason about it any more. It then often happens that the meaning of the text I studied before but was unable to understand suddenly becomes clear when I'm doing something completely unrelated (like taking a walk, drinking thee, might be anything). That's the letting go phase. It's no different from the way creative scientists work. Not saying I'm one of them. I gave that a try, but dropped out and failed.

 

There's a Joe Rogan Experience podcast that brings this up, #1109. I've only seen the first 45 but the theme of sleep quality, dreams, creative thinking and solving things crops up.

 

The phrase "sleep on it" is there for a reason, so you see how your brain processes things when you least expect it. Fascinating stuff.

[wandelaar]

7 minutes ago, Rara said:

If we have interpreted these correctly, that is! I've misunderstood things from the texts MAJORLY in the past. I'm a lot better these days, I just gotta be careful not to think I understand when I don't. If I don't know the answer, raise my hand etc etc.

 

How could one ever be absolutely sure? Don't think even Chuang tse thought that possible...

[Rara]

11 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

In the most part, yes.  But I do realize that Buddhism teaches compassion and acceptance but I've not seen where they are allowed to just sit down with others and BS.  I'm a BS kind of guy.

 

 

It's interesting. I've been following a Youtube channel from another British guy called George Thompson. He's just graduated from university and went to China to find a Kung Fu school to help train his wandering mind into some discipline. I related to this because I never realised how bad my motivation, anxiety and mood had got following my graduation eight years ago.

 

Anyways, he ended up in Wudang, struggled with his limited Mandarin and ended up staying with and learning Tai Chi under Master Gu. After months of releasing fun weekly videos, he then went off to a Buddhist monastery to train and I think he managed about three videos the whole time he was there, with basically no footage other than himself in it. You can almost tell that he is struggling to cut the video bits together because of the stricter rules they have.

[wandelaar]

8 minutes ago, Rara said:

The phrase "sleep on it" is there for a reason, so you see how your brain processes things when you least expect it. Fascinating stuff.

 

Yes! I often do that when a problem seems to have no rational solution. And it works! Not always, but often enough it does.

[Rara]

7 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

How could one ever be absolutely sure? Don't think even Chuang tse thought that possible...

 

True, but I believe there are some universal basic understandings. Otherwise, what would the Taoist masters be teaching people? I think it's important to listen to those that have had stuff passed down through schools...for someone like me anyway. I can get a bit carried away at times and end up in the clouds, missing the point.

 

I guess that's the danger with any text, religious or philosophical. I think we all know what can really happen if a meaning gets distorted and used for bad purposes, too!

[Rocky Lionmouth]

8 hours ago, Rara said:

 

Yes, time is a big factor, as well as money. I quit a job a few weeks ago because it took me away from home too much, and often when I was at home, I was bringing the work back with me. It seriously interfered with my cultivation.

 

My colleague was semi-retired and had half of the duties that I did. He's not a Taoist but he certainly has more capacity to live the life than I (did)

 

Rara, i’m always happy when we write eachother. 

Good for you, that is a hard and brave decision to make and i fully respect the approach, i’ve had people blow a couple of fuses when i’ve mentioned similar thoughts. I hope you find a job that allows you to be closer to your nature.

Having time and mental space to invest is the prime fuel of cultivation, i’d offer you a job if i had one atm.

 

I hate retired people who have it set up like that. They make this big show of ”uff, i’m so tired and poor me i have huge amounts of time and a stipend to live off” and they are having a blast like all day.

[liminal_luke]

I don`t think there`s any use denying the advantages of money and free time (although too much of either can mess a person up if not managed wisely).  Still, we can do what we can within the limitations of our circumstances.    I`m kinda sorta trying to eat a paleo diet and would love to eat grass fed beef regularly as part of my diet plan.  I`ve asked many butchers here in Mexico about the eating habits of  the cows whose meat they are selling.  They look at me like the bizarre foreigner I am, and  invariably answer --  grain. That`s too bad but it doesn`t mean I need to throw in the nutritional towel and go out for donuts and a caramel latte.

 

I used to see a therapist who encouraged me to imagine that the entire universe was conspiring to encourage my spiritual growth.  (My knack for picking kooky therapists is unparalleled.)  Could it be true though?  I`m convinced that there`s meaning in life`s difficulties.  It`s through engaging with these difficulties, including the economic ones, that we grow.  Money issues, in particular, are a gold mine for those who seek spiritual maturity. 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2018 by liminal_luke

[Marblehead]

4 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

I hate retired people who have it set up like that. They make this big show of ”uff, i’m so tired and poor me i have huge amounts of time and a stipend to live off” and they are having a blast like all day.

Funny.  I always need more time because it takes me ever longer to do things the older I get.

 

[Rara]

13 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

 

Rara, i’m always happy when we write eachother. 

Good for you, that is a hard and brave decision to make and i fully respect the approach, i’ve had people blow a couple of fuses when i’ve mentioned similar thoughts. I hope you find a job that allows you to be closer to your nature.

Having time and mental space to invest is the prime fuel of cultivation, i’d offer you a job if i had one atm.

 

I hate retired people who have it set up like that. They make this big show of ”uff, i’m so tired and poor me i have huge amounts of time and a stipend to live off” and they are having a blast like all day.

 

Thank you for your kind words. Yes, my uncle blew a fuse with stress and ended up in an institution for some time. I've had other family members come close, so I'm learning about my genes and capabilities. I'm now freelancing, which means I can pick and choose (and spend less money when I have less money - good that I have a Taoist mind, prepared for the slump!)

 

Hate is such a strong word. But I understand what you mean  

[wandelaar]

26 minutes ago, Rara said:

True, but I believe there are some universal basic understandings. Otherwise, what would the Taoist masters be teaching people? I think it's important to listen to those that have had stuff passed down through schools...for someone like me anyway. I can get a bit carried away at times and end up in the clouds, missing the point.

 

I guess that's the danger with any text, religious or philosophical. I think we all know what can really happen if a meaning gets distorted and used for bad purposes, too!

 

There is no guaranty that Taoist masters from schools with a long lineage will have it right. The long lineage can just as well mean that they have wandered far from the source (so to speak). And even Lao tse and Chuang tse may be wrong or outdated on some points. But I agree that it can be useful to listen to what others have to say, especially when they know what they are talking about. Even discussing your own position can be helpful. But then again: it all takes time and energy, and I believe it's a bad thing to get caught up in discussions or studies that apparently don't lead anywhere.

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

There is no guaranty that Taoist masters from schools with a long lineage will have it right. The long lineage can just as well mean that they have wandered far from the source (so to speak). And even Lao tse and Chuang tse may be wrong or outdated on some points.

 

This is worthy of a thread in its own right! (hint, hint) I, personally, always come back to choice/consequence. Whether we follow the road laid before us or forge our own path, we always must choose. And once chosen we must accept the consequences. 

[wandelaar]

2 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

This is worthy of a thread in its own right! (hint, hint) I, personally, always come back to choice/consequence. Whether we follow the road laid before us or forge our own path, we always must choose. And once chosen we must accept the consequences. 

 

"Man is condemned to be free", Sartre.

[wandelaar]

@ Lost in Translation

 

What exactly should be the topic for the possible thread you hinted at?

[Wu Ming Jen]

On Wudang the kids are from poor families and they are welcome. Given housing, food and training in trade for become a coach. by the age of 20 they have been training for 8 hrs a day with 1/2 day wed and full day thursday off.  Hard work and dedication to obtain skill.

 

Rich poor, tall short, wise dumb, hermit social butterfly, married celibate, in a cave in a city, this and that, that and this sometimes right some time left. the ability to be round or square at any given moment, beyond the dust of the world and in the dust of the world at the same time, A closed society the exceptional value of life,  gold seems cheap and worthless, image is false and pure deception, the wealth of true value has no form and is limitless, chase after the temporary and material aspect of life and always be poor no matter what wealth one may have. The material life needs and the spiritual life needs of life are equal and rely on each other. Return to simplicity .

 

My lineage is 16 th generation longmen pai dragon gate wudang shen. If one can last just one month of training I would consider discussing with that person how traditional lineages have wandered from the source. 

[Stosh]

Its problematic to sway peoples opinions, or have purposefully directed discussions. 

To assert whom knows or doesnt , is going to hurt feelings most likely.

Though I usually push some point , I know about the price it costs, and it might be better for me to leave it to somebody else. 

 

When I stop to consider what has been fruitful , most of the time its not the facts insights and logical opinions on facts .

 

When I look to those who have a gift for gab, the people for whom conversations seem to leave people smiling most. , there was no ultimate point other than to be in touch.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Stosh