Taoist paradoxes

[wandelaar]

Taoist literature abounds in paradoxes. Reading the paradoxes I often find it hard to get at their meaning. One way of looking at it is seeing the paradoxes as forms of hyperbole. So "doing nothing" (wu wei) isn't literally doing nothing, but getting things done by subtly intervening at the right moment and without making a big show of it. 

 

Are there any other general ways of looking at Taoist paradoxes that may help to reveal their meaning?

Edited April 24, 2018 by wandelaar

[Marblehead]

I had the same problem initially but after reading Chuang Tzu they all were pretty much explained.

 

[wandelaar]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

I had the same problem initially but after reading Chuang Tzu they all were pretty much explained.

 

The last time I read the complete Chuang tse is many years ago. Maybe time to do it again...?

Edited April 24, 2018 by wandelaar

[thelerner]

Paradoxes in the Tao..

some say you need a doctorate to understand them,

others say you need a pair.

 

What's helped me is the saying- The opposite of a Great Truth is another Great Truth. 

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Taoist literature abounds in paradoxes. Reading the paradoxes I often find it hard to get at their meaning. One way of looking at it is seeing the paradoxes as forms of hyperbole. So "doing nothing" (wu wei) isn't literally doing nothing, but getting things done by subtly intervening at the right moment and without making a big show of it. 

 

Are there any other general ways of looking at Taoist paradoxes that may help to reveal their meaning?

 

Doing nothing can be "subtly intervening at the right moment and without making a big show of it" for now if that makes the most sense to you but it can go much deeper than that with time, patience, and deeper realization. The truth is that it is meant to be taken quite literally but that requires a level of understanding that usually comes over time through experiential practices which help loosen the stranglehold of the "doer" and the compulsion to change what is. Hence the critical role of meditation and other experiential practices among Daoists (neigong, qigong, taiji, bagua, etc...). There is a way to be in which one literally does not intervene. Whatever needs to be done happens quite spontaneously and naturally with no effort, planning, or engagement of the "doer" whatsoever. This is a large part of the unique training methods of taijiquan. 

 

My favorite approach to paradox comes from the writings of the philosopher poet John Donohue.

"And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discover a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you."

 

Paradox abounds in Daoist literature because the Daoists are trying to get you out of your head, out of your rational approach to the world. Paradox attacks rationality. It is precisely the same tool as the Chan/Zen koan. This is why the sage appears like an idiot, unlearning is prioritized over learning, paradoxes are everywhere, and the best thing to do is nothing at all. The one who plans, the one who studies, the one who wants to change anything or intervene is precisely what is blocking the natural flow and rhythm of the Way.

 

[Geof Nanto]

“Oddly enough, the paradox is one of the most valuable spiritual possessions, while uniformity of meaning is a sign of weakness. Hence a religion becomes inwardly impoverished when it loses or reduces its paradoxes; but their multiplication enriches because only the paradox comes anywhere near to comprehending the fullness of life. Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one-sided, and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible.”

 

– Carl Jung
 

[Boundlesscostfairy]

If you really feel like it..when you don't understand a verse from the Tao Te Ching.. you can try rewriting it in a way that you understand..

 

After that you can present it on the board..or just compare it to the original text.. and see if you can figure out the meaning so to speak..

[Lost in Translation]

I tried to be a Taoist for twenty five years and have failed miserably. I give up. I'm just gonna sit here and watch everyone go about their business for a while.

[dawei]

On 4/24/2018 at 1:37 PM, wandelaar said:

Taoist literature abounds in paradoxes. Reading the paradoxes I often find it hard to get at their meaning. One way of looking at it is seeing the paradoxes as forms of hyperbole. So "doing nothing" (wu wei) isn't literally doing nothing, but getting things done by subtly intervening at the right moment and without making a big show of it. 

 

Are there any other general ways of looking at Taoist paradoxes that may help to reveal their meaning?

 

I've said it else where...  drop duality thinking...    just see a spectrum... for visual purposes, it can be horizontal.  Although realize chinese is vertical.

 

Wu Wei is not doing nothing... it is realizing the spectrum of duality is singularly living without intention of cause due to a place on the spectrum.

[wandelaar]

7 hours ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

If you really feel like it..when you don't understand a verse from the Tao Te Ching.. you can try rewriting it in a way that you understand..

 

After that you can present it on the board..or just compare it to the original text.. and see if you can figure out the meaning so to speak..

 

Good idea!

[wandelaar]

6 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

I tried to be a Taoist for twenty five years and have failed miserably. I give up. I'm just gonna sit here and watch everyone go about their business for a while.

 

That's the way I think it should work. When you have tried enough you're subconscious mind should about be ready to point the way...

[wandelaar]

6 hours ago, dawei said:

I've said it else where...  drop duality thinking...    just see a spectrum... for visual purposes, it can be horizontal.  Although realize chinese is vertical.

 

Wu Wei is not doing nothing... it is realizing the spectrum of duality is singularly living without intention of cause due to a place on the spectrum.

 

Could you give a practical example to see how that works? A paradoxical sentence from the Tao Te Ching would be nice.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

8 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

I tried to be a Taoist for twenty five years and have failed miserably. I give up. I'm just gonna sit here and watch everyone go about their business for a while.

 

*waves from the other side of the street, mouths ”WELCOME TO THE CLUB!” and toasts your good health*

[Rocky Lionmouth]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

 

Could you give a practical example to see how that works? A paradoxical sentence from the Tao Te Ching would be nice.

How about:

Quote

 

The highest virtue is not virtuous. Therefore it has virtue.

The lowest virtue holds on to virtue. Therefore it has no virtue.

 

 

I suggest you read the story of when the Prophet Moses was badgering Al Khidr who was up to his usual shenanigans. Now Al Khidr wasn’t wu wei-ing it fully but he did what he could when he could and recognized to leave well alone the rest of the time. Sure confused the heck out of Moses who was, supposedly, pretty sharp in his intuition and knowledge.

What he often lacked in comparison to Al Khidr was that he was so intent observing the manifestations that the mystery just went past him completely.

 

Funny thing is Khidrs insight wasn’t even all that miraculous as the hadith would have him (a near sorcerous or immortal figure gifted with divine powers of clairvoyance and farsight), he just knew what was what and could read the signs around him. Those that retell his stories are too focused on him being a Holy Man and Close Servant of The Greatest, but he was just hip and figured certain aspects of flow out. He was honest in his dedication to be of service to Allah and his merit was generosity and frugality, he knew even gifted and erudite folks would call him batshit crazy, but his Way had more virtue in that he was concerned with what to do about this or that in a way that was immediate and had long term import of value to others. Sort of. Wether he was humble or not is hard to say but he wasn’t easily impressed nor too conceited to call someone out on their mistakes. Makes me think of Chuang or Lao immediately.

Sadly he left nothing behind him except for rumors and hearsay but his encounter with Moses is pretty inspiring from a Daoist perspective.

 

Uh, i’ll be done pestering you now, thank you for your patience

2 cents, outtie 5k.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Rocky Lionmouth

[wandelaar]

@ Rocky Lionmouth

 

So the idea is that real virtue is beyond conventional virtue, because conventional virtue doesn't cover all possible cases? That was also my interpretation.

[wandelaar]

Now there seems to be a possibility that reality itself is paradoxical. In which case paradoxes could simply be statements of fact.

 

How about that?

 

And how could that be of any use in daily life?

[Stosh]

39 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Now there seems to be a possibility that reality itself is paradoxical. In which case paradoxes could simply be statements of fact.

 

How about that?

 

And how could that be of any use in daily life?

  yeah, how could statements of fact , be of any use in real life? 

[wandelaar]

22 minutes ago, Stosh said:

  yeah, how could statements of fact , be of any use in real life? 

 

Ah - you know some examples of useful paradoxical statements of fact? I will be happy to see them.

 

But I now realize "paradoxical" doesn't quite capture what I want to say. There are lots of paradoxical statements that are just spicy ways of saying something that can also be said in a non-contradictory way but with less literary quality. Those are not the examples I am looking for. The statement should be self-contradictory in an irreducible way. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by wandelaar

[Stosh]

1 minute ago, wandelaar said:

 

Ah - you know some examples of useful paradoxical statements of fact? I will be happy to see them.

 

But I now realize "paradoxical" doesn't quite capture what I want to say. There are lots of paradoxical statements that are just spicy ways of saying something that can also be said in a non-contradictory way but with less literary quality. Those are not the examples I am looking for. The statement should be self-contradictory in an irreducible way. 

Actually I was highlighting a very good question , in what you posed , I just framed it ,... quizzically. 

Addressing it myself , I will play it straight up,  One uses knowledge of facts , to ascertain the lay of the land , so as to be able to align with them and behave effectively. Facts themselves don't have preference, you provide that frame of reference. 

[wandelaar]

There are some logical curiosities like this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liar_paradox

 

But I wonder whether there are more practical irreducibly self-contradictory statements, if possible from the Taoist tradition....

[Stosh]

The universe is not in contradiction with itself, the contradiction has to do with our expectations vs the reality of things. 

Your birth is the beginning of your demise. This appears paradoxical to some, but its just fact. The question for an individual is just how does this understanding impact the way that they relate to the world. 

[wandelaar]

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

The universe is not in contradiction with itself, the contradiction has to do with our expectations vs the reality of things. 

Your birth is the beginning of your demise. This appears paradoxical to some, but its just fact. The question for an individual is just how does this understanding impact the way that they relate to the world. 

 

Hm! The occasional difference between facts and our expectations isn't surprising. It would be much more surprising when our expectations were always fulfilled.

[Stosh]

Just now, wandelaar said:

 

Hm! The occasional difference between facts and our expectations isn't surprising. It would be much more surprising when our expectations were always fulfilled.

Quite true. 

 

[Stosh]

Take fidelity , honoring the bond out of love for your wife would be virtue. 

Take that to its extremity, when its all honor , its not about love for your wife , 

and if you just love your wife its not about honor. 

Either way , the extremity of the virtue , in a way , is its demise. 

Extending that idea 

The sage, person of greatest extremity , can be seen as no longer exhibiting a human virtue -fidelity. 

[Lost in Translation]

4 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Take fidelity , honoring the bond out of love for your wife would be virtue. 

Take that to its extremity, when its all honor , its not about love for your wife , 

and if you just love your wife its not about honor. 

Either way , the extremity of the virtue , in a way , is its demise. 

 

I follow.

 

5 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Extending that idea 

The sage, person of greatest extremity , can be seen as no longer exhibiting a human virtue -fidelity.

 

I do not follow.

 

Can you please elucidate, perhaps with an example specific to the sage?