Letting go, and all will be well?

[wandelaar]

Can you learnt how to ride a bike without first trying to ride it and trying to keep your balance?  How about people telling you to just relax, act naturally and adapt to the natural movements of the bike? It will all come naturally, they say, as soon as you don't force yourself or the bike. Asking for tips on how to ride it or for examples of people actually riding a bike will only distract from the main point: just let it come naturally. And so on and so forth....

 

Sounds familiar? I am currently trying to life in the spirit of Lao tse and Chuang tse. That is to say I am self consciously trying to live in a Taoist manner. But I am continually getting the advise that I shouldn't try to follow rules or examples but should just let go of all striving and of unnatural behavior. When you reach the stage of nonduallity it will all come of it's own accord.

 

But I don't believe in magical short cuts and I haven't seen them in actual practice either. What I do believe (or rather know from experience) to be true is that all arts are first learned by self consciously trying to imitate what you see others do. Only then after you have become thoroughly familiar with the new techniques can they be applied in an intuitive, natural and/or creative manner.

 

And it's exactly the things learned that distinguishes the Taoist way (or any other way for that matter) from all other ways. So that's the reason I think the focus on letting go and nondualism is misplaced for someone like me who is only now starting to put Taoist theory into practice after half a lifetime of looking around in all possible other directions.

 

[Try]

Desire and no desire, both can be practiced, follow example or life freely, dao doesn't care.

A way that can be told is not eternal Dao. They may fade with time. No worries, there're ton of others way to reach Dao.

Familiar? DDJ ch 1 and whatever chapter.

 

You want magical shortcut? Get attunement/empowerment/whatever-they-call-it, it's akin to someone jump start you, but in the end you walk with your own feet till the end. Dangerous? Oh yeah, if the person who do that don't know what's s/he doing. Same stuff with every other thing in life, dangerous when uncontrolled. Do you trust s/he with your life?

 

Those dogmas are just one of many ways that others had else found, embraced, and got result. If you're not comfortable with it, let it go, why suffer? 

- Basically a rip off from OSHO's story

 

Just a rhetorical. "How long do you want to keep on contemplating?"

[KuroShiro]

46 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Can you learnt how to ride a bike without first trying to ride it and trying to keep your balance?

 

 

Yes, I taught my cousin how to ride a bike in under 5 min. The difficulty is not in riding the bike, it's on starting and stopping and once you address that it's done.

[wandelaar]

I'm already thoroughly familiar with riding a bike, it's my only means of transportation. I don't even remember how and when I learned it as a child. But that's not the point. The point is that I consider it extremely unlikely that someone could just effortlessly learn some kind of art without putting in a lot of conscious effort and in this way jump straightaway from the stage of novice to the stage of master in the few minutes. But if it is indeed possible I like to learn about it.

[Kar3n]

7 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

But if it is indeed possible I like to learn about it.

It is not. It takes work and practice, lots of practice, years or maybe even lifetimes.

[Mig]

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I'm already thoroughly familiar with riding a bike, it's my only means of transportation. I don't even remember how and when I learned it as a child. But that's not the point. The point is that I consider it extremely unlikely that someone could just effortlessly learn some kind of art without putting in a lot of conscious effort and in this way jump straightaway from the stage of novice to the stage of master in the few minutes. But if it is indeed possible I like to learn about it.

Not sure letting go is to compare with riding a bike. I am becoming a cyclist commuter by choice and the other day I decided to ride my bike without holding the front bar. Checked some videos and easy said than done. Or do you have a better way to learn how to ride without holding the bar? And now why do you want to be from novice to a master?

[Marblehead]

Hey Mig,  Why do you want to ride without holding the front bar?  So you can text while riding?

 

[Mig]

36 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Hey Mig,  Why do you want to ride without holding the front bar?  So you can text while riding?

 

 

Because is tiring after 20 miles and Sunday I did 50 miles with few pauses so I need to rest my arms. I can ride the bike just putting one finger but balance can trick me in seconds. And of course, my mind is all over while riding my bike or just meditating in the bike path by the ocean. Eventually, I will text while riding, wait and see.

[Chá Rén 茶人]

As Bodhidharma said, "You have to struggle to understand."

 

In order to know non-desire, detachment, and peace, you must first know the contrasts of addiction, craving, and chaos.

 

"This isn't a weekend retreat," according to Palahniuk's Tyler Durden. 

 

Letting go is the answer. But how can you understand that until your hands ache and cramp from holding onto what you love?

 

Falling is the answer. But how can you feel that until you have stood on solid ground?

[Lost in Translation]

3 minutes ago, Chá Rén 茶人 said:

In order to know non-desire, detachment, and peace, you must first know the contrasts of addiction, craving, and chaos.

 

"It's amazing how much "mature wisdom" resembles being too tired."

   -- Robert Heinlein via Lazarus Long

[Mig]

8 minutes ago, Chá Rén 茶人 said:

As Bodhidharma said, "You have to struggle to understand."

 

In order to know non-desire, detachment, and peace, you must first know the contrasts of addiction, craving, and chaos.

 

"This isn't a weekend retreat," according to Palahniuk's Tyler Durden. 

 

Letting go is the answer. But how can you understand that until your hands ache and cramp from holding onto what you love?

 

Falling is the answer. But how can you feel that until you have stood on solid ground?

Isn't human nature that when you fall, you stand up?

[Boundlesscostfairy]

When you let go, there is the object of letting go..

 

When you feel like letting go..there is the yin that is receptive to this...but also the yang which wants to actively try to make you let go..

 

With balance of both..you can truly achieve a calm state of balance..which will feel relaxing and receptive...hence letting go can both be passive and active..

[dawei]

14 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I am currently trying to life in the spirit of Lao tse and Chuang tse. That is to say I am self consciously trying to live in a Taoist manner. But I am continually getting the advise that I shouldn't try to follow rules or examples but should just let go of all striving and of unnatural behavior. When you reach the stage of nonduallity it will all come of it's own accord.

 

But I don't believe in magical short cuts and I haven't seen them in actual practice either. What I do believe (or rather know from experience) to be true is that all arts are first learned by self consciously trying to imitate what you see others do. Only then after you have become thoroughly familiar with the new techniques can they be applied in an intuitive, natural and/or creative manner.

 

And it's exactly the things learned that distinguishes the Taoist way (or any other way for that matter) from all other ways. So that's the reason I think the focus on letting go and nondualism is misplaced for someone like me who is only now starting to put Taoist theory into practice after half a lifetime of looking around in all possible other directions.

 

 

The brutal honesty of the challenges one faces is to be commended.  Good self-evaluation and observation on such stuff

 

Here's how I would explain it, as I think you have it wrong in a right way...  consciously trying and striving is exactly what Laozi and ZZ said NOT to do.  They didn't say follow no rules, they meant forget there is such a thing as rules;  You don't just let go of all as there is no 'all' to let go of; there is no stage to reach as there is no stage;  you don't become familiar with new techniques as there is nothing to be familiar with, no such thing as a technique, no possible directions to go.   

 

Just live without these concepts and distinctions floating in your head... that's the shortcut.   These are the endless roads and ways we pursue every day and cause the journey to appear... the short cut is... they don't exists ... till we think about them.

 

Do you see how easily you sleep at night.. effortlessly restful?   

 

If we are going to use our conscious mind to try and achieve something, let''s take note of our subconscious mind's Way... 

 

 

 

[wandelaar]

7 hours ago, dawei said:

Do you see how easily you sleep at night.. effortlessly restful?   

 

If we are going to use our conscious mind to try and achieve something, let''s take note of our subconscious mind's Way...

 

Letting go would have been enough when we still lived a natural life somewhere in the woods or in some cave. Then you could just fall back on what you instinctively already know what to do. (Such as sleeping at night.) Animals don't go to school. That's why I think so many Taoists of old were hermits. It greatly simplifies things to the point where you already know all you have to, and the only thing left is to let go of all conscious striving.

 

But now suppose our hermit got lost in a place where his instinctual responses were no longer appropriate (like modern society ). Would he still get by without conscious striving? Don't think so. And about Lao tse and Chuang tse, I guess those guys knew what they were talking about. You're right - they did promote letting go. But could they have done so and actually live by it if they had not first learned about their society and wise and subtle ways to behave in it? So I think Taoism nicely complements Confucianism. Or in modern terms: "letting go" complements "conscious training". Starting with letting go will get us into trouble, as we are not instinctively prepared to live in modern society.

 

Simple example: I often see care free easy going youth effortlessly throwing away cans, plastic bags or what have you on the streets and in the woods. They follow their natural instincts, just like an animal throwing away the left over indigestible parts of their food. That's what happens when the aspect of conscious training is neglected and letting go is considered the end-all and be-all of the road.  

Edited April 26, 2018 by wandelaar

[Michael Sternbach]

19 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I'm already thoroughly familiar with riding a bike, it's my only means of transportation. I don't even remember how and when I learned it as a child. But that's not the point. The point is that I consider it extremely unlikely that someone could just effortlessly learn some kind of art without putting in a lot of conscious effort and in this way jump straightaway from the stage of novice to the stage of master in the few minutes. But if it is indeed possible I like to learn about it.

 

I wasn't quite sure in which of the two threads to post this... So here's the link.

 

 

[Marblehead]

10 hours ago, Mig said:

Isn't human nature that when you fall, you stand up?

Yes.  And perhaps reflect on whether we were holding on to the wrong things for support.

 

[wandelaar]

7 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

I wasn't quite sure in which of the two threads to post this... So here's the link.

 

 

 

Could you please post a simple quote, so I can see what you mean to say?

[Kar3n]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

Could you please post a simple quote, so I can see what you mean to say?

Click the arrow in the header of the quoted topic. It is a link to his post.

 

[thelerner]

On 4/25/2018 at 7:15 AM, wandelaar said:

Can you learnt how to ride a bike without first trying to ride it and trying to keep your balance?  How about people telling you to just relax, act naturally and adapt to the natural movements of the bike? It will all come naturally, they say, as soon as you don't force yourself or the bike.

 

You need both.  In learning most physical skills, its best to combine bouts of tight concentration (& internal verbal instructions) with increasingly long times of relax, let go.. 

 

Both states of mind, are in essence learning tools, pull them out and interchange them as needed. 

 

Taoistically there is the famed story of the emperor who seeks the wisdom of the Taoist butcher- http://www.taoism.net/chuang/butcher.htm

Edited April 26, 2018 by thelerner

[johndoe2012]

They were talking about following the knowing that comes out of nothingness, not following thoughts. 

 

The mind is the one that invents stories about how this is not possible. 

 

 

[wandelaar]

Sure! We can all be a butcher, painter, writer, anything we want (or not want) to be by just letting go. No need to train, or study, or acquire any skills. That's why we see lots of beautiful examples on this forum of people actually living a Taoist life. Let it all come naturally.

 

Dream on brother, you can fly...

 

(The above is to be considered ironic.)

Edited April 29, 2018 by wandelaar

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

Dream on brother, you can fly...

But please, test that capability only when standing on solid ground.

 

[wandelaar]

15 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

But please, test that capability only when standing on solid ground.

 

I sure hope the irony of my post didn't escape even the most casual reader. But you are right: better safe than sorry. I have added a warning.

[Kar3n]

Even with training progression will be minimal to non-existent if we can't let go of the mind stories.

[wandelaar]

On 25-4-2018 at 4:02 PM, Kar3n said:

It is not. It takes work and practice, lots of practice, years or maybe even lifetimes.

 

4 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

Even with training progression will be minimal to non-existent if we can't let go of the mind stories.

 

So both are needed. Just as I am saying....