Kar3n Posted April 29, 2018 10 minutes ago, wandelaar said: So both are needed. Just as I am saying.... Yes, and I do not believe anyone has suggested otherwise. Most have a practice of some kind, even if it is not a traditional system. It is easy to say let go; it is the actual letting go of thoughts and a lifetime(s) of conditioning that is so damned difficult at times. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fa Xin Posted April 29, 2018 (edited) In order to let go, you have to be aware your holding onto something... Edited April 29, 2018 by Fa Xin 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kar3n Posted April 29, 2018 1 minute ago, Fa Xin said: In order to let go, you have to be aware your holding onto something... As we are aware, being aware is, on occasion, elusive. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fa Xin Posted April 29, 2018 Just now, Kar3n said: As we are aware, being aware is, on occasion, elusive. Exactly... sometimes it takes me a little time to even figure out I’ve been carrying this boulder around. “Why does my back hurt so much?” Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fa Xin Posted April 29, 2018 I think a big part of the process is realizing what “carrying it” even feels like.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted April 29, 2018 Yeah, some people are born with unusual natural abilities. Others have to train hard and even then might not meet their expectations. Pretty much, what comes natural for us is what we should put most of our effort into. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wandelaar Posted April 29, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Marblehead said: Pretty much, what comes natural for us is what we should put most of our effort into. Do you mean just as animals naturally act as befits their species? Chuang tse has some stories suggesting this approach. Edited April 29, 2018 by wandelaar 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rara Posted April 29, 2018 Heya. I've skimmed most of the thread... ...just wondering about Chuang Tzu's emphasis on skill acquisition (if this hasn't been mentioned already) ...and I'm pretty sure this was meant in the OP anyway, no? The butcher and ox story comes to mind... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rara Posted April 29, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Marblehead said: Yeah, some people are born with unusual natural abilities. Others have to train hard and even then might not meet their expectations. Pretty much, what comes natural for us is what we should put most of our effort into. I always said in school that to be one of the smart kids, I had to work twice as hard as them... Edited April 29, 2018 by Rara I'm typing on a phone, aight?! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wandelaar Posted April 29, 2018 It's also important to realize that historically Taoism had to "fight" Confucianism. The emphasis on learning was already well taken care of by Confucius so to arrive at a middle way (where both learning/training and "letting go" find their place) the Taoists had to overemphasize "letting go". Nevertheless even Lao tse used a lot of rules of thumb (yes! - he did ) and Chuang tse used exemplary stories. So even the founding fathers of Taoism didn't think everything comes naturally. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted April 29, 2018 7 hours ago, wandelaar said: Do you mean just as animals naturally act as befits their species? Chuang tse has some stories suggesting this approach. Yes and exactly. If we aren't good at a particular trait then we should stop screwing things up and concentrate on what we can do well. Sure, we can try to improve in areas where we are weak but we should be honest enough to admit that we can't do everything well. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boundlesscostfairy Posted April 30, 2018 With more practice the mind changes into an abstract state of vision..and it is through this(just like thunder) that ones adaptation becomes a completion..and it is seen in all things concretely that the whole being objectified...well there is an object there.. In other words the object is everything..and its relation to you..and the capstone of learning.. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
9th Posted April 30, 2018 53 minutes ago, Boundlesscostfairy said: With more practice the mind changes into an abstract state of vision..and it is through this(just like thunder) that ones adaptation becomes a completion..and it is seen in all things concretely that the whole being objectified...well there is an object there.. In other words the object is everything..and its relation to you..and the capstone of learning.. On 1/31/2018 at 9:00 PM, 9th said: If you wish to engage in the path of desire, the ever-present object, Do not perceive inner or outer, self or other. To understand this in itself, it has been presented as natural liberation. Although in the truth body the three kayas are inseperable, If you practice, distinct results arise. Oh! When you realize their inseparability, wrong views are quickly destroyed If you understand the unborn emptiness as indivisible and the point of contact, the forest and leaves have no basis. Dualistic compassion, which is not understanding contact, Is a cause for pollution, leading one to undergo the experience of samsara Emptiness and compassion are inseparable and devoid of arising Whoever is free from hope and fear of nirvana and samsara, not finding body and mind, rests naturally in non-thought. Suchness is not found by the intellect; it is self-arising. - Saraha Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rara Posted April 30, 2018 13 hours ago, wandelaar said: It's also important to realize that historically Taoism had to "fight" Confucianism. The emphasis on learning was already well taken care of by Confucius so to arrive at a middle way (where both learning/training and "letting go" find their place) the Taoists had to overemphasize "letting go". Nevertheless even Lao tse used a lot of rules of thumb (yes! - he did ) and Chuang tse used exemplary stories. So even the founding fathers of Taoism didn't think everything comes naturally. I agree with this. I think it was one of the Giles', to paraphrase, that said that Lao Tzu's philosophy leaned more to the submissive or humble side (I think we all know this, really) So where is the yang to the yin? The balance that is key to all Taoists? Possibly the Confucian school of thought... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted April 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Rara said: So where is the yang to the yin? The balance that is key to all Taoists? Possibly the Confucian school of thought... One can readily see it in the Chuang Tzu. I think it is fair to relate Lao Tzu with Yin and Confucius with Yang while Chuang Tzu moderates. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rara Posted April 30, 2018 5 hours ago, Marblehead said: One can readily see it in the Chuang Tzu. I think it is fair to relate Lao Tzu with Yin and Confucius with Yang while Chuang Tzu moderates. True dat. Chuang Tzu is a lot cheekier and fiery in places. So much so that some Confucianists would accuse master Chuang of assaulting their philosophy. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted April 30, 2018 Just as long as they feel assaulted and not insulted because we are not allowed personal insults here on TDB. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
