Need Help Clarifying a Question . . .

[Lataif]

Please:

 

(1) I don't really mind not knowing an answer . . . but I hate not even knowing what I'm asking.

 

(2) I've got one of those now -- can anyone try to clarify it for me (?)

 

***

 

(3) I intuitively feel that something is that case . . . and that there should be a clear, compelling

way to state it.

 

(4) But when I try . . . it doesn't even convince me 100%.

 

(5) Here's my best try at it:

 

"The fact that there is a Billboard Top 40 . . . demonstrates that there must be objective qualities

in Music to which people respond . . . and that Music is not just a subjective experience".

 

(6) Or in other words: 

 

"Why would so many people all agree that there is something worthwhile about piece of Music

if they were not all experiencing in common an objective quality of that Music (?)"

 

(7)  This seems true to me.

 

(8) But the argument doesn't seem rigorous -- although I'm not sure why.

 

(9) So what do people here think:

 

(a) Is the conclusion in fact, true (?)

(b) Does the argument demonstrate it (?)

(c) If so, how does it demonstrate it (?)

(d) Is there a clearer, more rigorous way to state it  (?)

 

Thanks . . .  

[voidisyinyang]

16 minutes ago, Lataif said:

Please:

 

(1) I don't really mind not knowing an answer . . . but I hate not even knowing what I'm asking.

 

(2) I've got one of those now -- can anyone try to clarify it for me (?)

 

***

 

(3) I intuitively feel that something is that case . . . and that there should be a clear, compelling

way to state it.

 

(4) But when I try . . . it doesn't even convince me 100%.

 

(5) Here's my best try at it:

 

"The fact that there is a Billboard Top 40 . . . demonstrates that there must be objective qualities

in Music to which people respond . . . and that Music is not just a subjective experience".

 

(6) Or in other words: 

 

"Why would so many people all agree that there is something worthwhile about piece of Music

if they were not all experiencing in common an objective quality of that Music (?)"

 

(7)  This seems true to me.

 

(8) But the argument doesn't seem rigorous -- although I'm not sure why.

 

(9) So what do people here think:

 

(a) Is the conclusion in fact, true (?)

(b) Does the argument demonstrate it (?)

(c) If so, how does it demonstrate it (?)

(d) Is there a clearer, more rigorous way to state it  (?)

 

Thanks . . .  

 

Music means also happiness in Chinese - all human cultures use the Octave, Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth as the ratios 1:2:3:4.

 

So Western music approximates those ratios by trying to "contain" infinity using geometry as a spatial measurement.

 

The "one" is actually an infinite resonance of time-frequency energy as 2:3 (yang) and 3:4 (yin) that creates infinity - because 2:3 is C to F as the subharmonic perfect fifth but doubled it is the Perfect Fourth as 4:3 and so G=3=F at the same time as nonlinear listening of subharmonics and overtones. This changes the value of the "one" as the fundamental pitch.

 

So in Western music - the "ratings" of top hits are based on mainly just promotional marketing and payoffs behind the scenes.

 

If a song creates internal tingling - this is called frission - the chills means the inner ear activates the vagus nerve to increase dopamine as bliss.

 

So this is caused by the natural overtone harmonics being activated. So if a note is C as the 1 - then the first overtone is embedded in the note - the octave as 2 and the perfect fifth as 3 - as subharmonic and overtone. So G is the first harmonic of C as the overtone fifth as yang while F is the first subharmonic of C also as the Perfect Fifth. But the first overtone of G is D while the first overtone of F is C. And yet if you double F back into the same octave as the G then it is 4/3 as the Perfect Fourth and the F is the new 1 as the root tonic.

 

So the Daoists acknowledged this "3 in 1" unity as the truth of reality as infinite resonance of complementary opposites.

 

the highest note can not be heard as chapter 41 of the Tao Te Ching can be translated.

 

But the West lied about the empirical truth of music - and so instead created disharmony and this is actually the origin of Western mathematics!!

 

So now it is not until quantum relativity that this is being rediscovered - it is called the "measurement problem" since the order of the time of the measurement changes the value - and so is "noncommutative phase."

 

So the fundamental pitch as the "one" means actually at each zero point in space there is still yin-yang that is undivided future and past and by listening we can resonate with the future and change our past - and experience this through light.

 

Listening is superluminal phase that is faster than the speed of light - and so for the Daoists the root tonic was the Lunar energy as the yin qi that harmonizes with the Sun - so that 81 lunar months x 19 solar years = the difference between the Perfect Fifth and the Octave so that the macrocosmic is resonated into the microcosm - down to 2 hour cycles of qi in the body and the 24 hours of the day and the 4 seasons, etc.

 

So this goes back to "neolithic" times in China - based on bone flutes discovered next to Turtle shells. The dragon and tiger as yin and yang goes back to 6000 BCE or so - documented with the tiger as the west and dragon as the east - based on the right and left side of the body, facing south.

 

So the solar and lunar energy resonates as yang-yin and yin-yang at the same time - as noncommutative phase so that Earth has life energy maintained as reverse time consciousness - for longevity and healing secrets, spiritual powers and even a golden body.

 

Western culture is based on the "separation of heaven and earth" through the wrong mathematics from the wrong music theory - as left brain dominance. But what defines humans is this recognition of a "pitch centre" - and the ability to hear faster than we can measure things at the speed of light. So as language gets older than it is more musical and more sophisticated and visual language is preceded by the subconscious sounds of the letters. This is the Bouba-Kiki effect - so the softer sounds of vowels are visually more rounded - and vowels then resonate with stronger amplification.

 

The secret meaning of OM is the infinite resonance of yin-yang as the "three gunas of no guna" - and so that is also the oldest philosophy of India and goes back to the original human culture, the San Bushmen. So the original music sounds boring, but the Eland Bull ritual music is actually the original spiritual training based on the lunar calendar with the voice as the jing enegy - or N/om -  expressing the harmonization of yin and yang. So when we listen with the eyes closed - this is right-brain dominant listening which activates the right side vagus nerve that connects to the left side of the brain. Left ear dominant listening does not activate the right side of the brain easily since the left side vagus nerve does not connect to the right side of the brain.

 

So when we visualize the location of sound with our eyes closed - as in the small universe meditation or microcosmic orbit or heavenly circuit - this means we use the right and left ear as phase coherence that is faster than light - it is sub-angstrom listening. The highest note we hear externally is at microsecond wavelength which resonates the brain as a whole as ultrasound - and so it is the secret of chapter 41 of the Tao Te Ching. And this ultrasound has been shown to resonate the microtubules of collagen which is piezoelectric so the ultrasound has 3000 times greater electrical conductance than any other frequency - and so the tubulin "self amplify" into the macroquantum level. The subharmonic OM is then heard as the resonance of reverse time phase or the spin between the electron and proton - called the magnetic moment and is accessed through this full body right-side vagus nerve listening with the eyes closed.

 

As a Tibetan medical doctor states:

 

Quote

The ear collect the spiraling energy from the cosmos, this energy gives life to man, and we see this vitality in the light which shines forth from our eyes. Tibetan medical doctor.

 

[Rara]

PR has a lot to do with it. And sales forces.

 

A good hook does help though. I say it's mainly subjective!

[silent thunder]

What humans consider beautiful and ugly seems utterly subjective to me and further, seems based on the framework of what is encountered and experienced from the ages of 0 to roughly 7 years.

 

This set of experience preps the canvas for what will be considered 'normal' thereafter, and is determined and shaped by our familial and cultural environments.  Normal, however varies wildly from culture to culture.  This is unavoidable.  Normal actions required for daily life in the jungles of Papua New Guinnea, are not normal in downtown Los Angeles.   Radio in PNG and in Europe reflect the subjective tastes for music in those places, just as having breakfast in a foreign country can seem abnormal, gross, or pleasantly awesome, but rarely 'normal'.

 

It is not surprising to me then, when certain songs appear on the billboard top 40.  This is not a demonstration of objective truth to the quality of the sounds being broadcast by said songs, but an indication of the similarity of the interpretation of, and subsequent reaction to, those sounds among those listening.  This accounts for how music themes shift with generations. 

 

 

[Lataif]

1 hour ago, Rara said:

PR has a lot to do with it. And sales forces.

 

A good hook does help though. I say it's mainly subjective!

 

(1) Well . . . Sufism understands Music to have an objective quality that can

be experienced.

 

(2) And I'm confident that's true.

 

(3) But I've been looking at possible ways to demonstrate it . . . and it's problematical,

as one would expect. 

[Lataif]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

It is not surprising to me then, when certain songs appear on the billboard top 40.  This is not a demonstration of objective truth to the quality of the sounds being broadcast by said songs, but an indication of the similarity of the interpretation of, and subsequent reaction to, those sounds among those listening.  This accounts for how music themes shift with generations. 

 

 

 

(1) But what does that mean (?)

 

(2) This is where I'm going around and around with it.

 

(3) Please explain, step by step, the sequence of events that leads to a song

being popular . . . as you understand it.

 

(4) My proposed sequence is something like this:

 

-- the song contains a certain quality that can be experienced by human beings

-- people's capacity, interest, conditioning, etc affects whether they do or do

not experience it and to what extent

-- but when lots of people do, the song is popular

 

(5) Analogously:

 

-- food contains a certain quality that can be experienced by human beings

(sweet, sour, bitter, etc)

-- people's capacity, interest, conditioning, etc affects whether they do or do

not experience it and to what extent

-- but when lots of people do, the taste is popular

[voidisyinyang]

3 hours ago, Lataif said:

 

(1) But what does that mean (?)

 

(2) This is where I'm going around and around with it.

 

(3) Please explain, step by step, the sequence of events that leads to a song

being popular . . . as you understand it.

 

(4) My proposed sequence is something like this:

 

-- the song contains a certain quality that can be experienced by human beings

-- people's capacity, interest, conditioning, etc affects whether they do or do

not experience it and to what extent

-- but when lots of people do, the song is popular

 

(5) Analogously:

 

-- food contains a certain quality that can be experienced by human beings

(sweet, sour, bitter, etc)

-- people's capacity, interest, conditioning, etc affects whether they do or do

not experience it and to what extent

-- but when lots of people do, the taste is popular

 

Happy, Sad, Scary and Peaceful music have been proven to be transcultural - they are hard-wired into humans.

 

Western music is a hit – even with remote African tribes

Music really is universal, scientists find after discovering African tribes can recognise emotions in Western music.

Quote

 

"Both Mafa and Western listeners showed an ability to recognise the three basic emotional expressions tested in this study from Western music," the researchers said.

"This indicates that these emotional expressions conveyed by the Western musical excerpts can be universally recognised."

 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/5016906/Western-music-is-a-hit-even-with-remote-African-tribes.html

 

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02699930701503567

 

So basically the major scale and chord is "happy" and the minor scale and chord is "sad" and the diminished chord and scale is "scary" - https://books.google.com/books?id=EQvmZn1Ino4C&pg=PA278&lpg=PA278&dq=happy+sad+scary+emotion+music+tribe+in+africa&source=bl&ots=etyyjH2d7D&sig=Ph1VaN7CSITQqPXvYvE74Xt-4Ng&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwif7teuqtbaAhXD24MKHUpeAC4Q6AEIUTAJ#v=onepage&q=happy sad scary emotion music tribe in africa&f=false

 

The Evolution of Emotional Communication: From Sounds in Nonhuman Mammals to ...

 

Western music is basically "program" music - while nonwestern trance music - using microtones - is based on deeper emotional states of the alpha and theta brain waves - with theta as the trance state. The Mozart Effect in Western music is the closest this gets - actually as it is accepted the Mozart Effect is beta brain wave activation. So you have increased visual memorization abilities due to the fast changes in frequency and the brain perceives frequency as visualize changes in height - as pitch - aka "follow the bouncing ball." But there is a deeper Mozart Effect based on the slow middle movements of Baroque and Classical - and so the breathing rate and heart become synchronized - via 1 beat per second or 60 bpm. So this increases the alpha brain waves. This is how music was used for epic poetry as oral history by Bards or Griots....

 

If  a person trains on a music instrument intensively before 7 years old this dramatically increases the corpus callosum - which connects the left and right brain signals. Normally over 90% of the brain signals stay stuck in their respective sides of the brain and the corpus callosum only connects about 1% of the signals. So if this is increased - the corpus callosum wiring actually increases.

 

So with major/minor/diminished tuning at the language of emotions - this is based on the overtones and undertones with overtones more major and undertones more minor and then farther along from the fundamental pitch - you get the diminished.

 

The tones create subharmonics based on the difference of the overtones - so with two notes close together - you have a beat that is created as the difference between the two notes - and the brain has a trade off between time and frequency to perceive this beat. As the tones separate in frequency then it takes a shorter time to perceive the beat as an inverse ratio. And so with the Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth you have a 1:2:3:4 ratio of intervals so that the beats are less frequent since the overtones resonate more frequency as common denominators. And yet with the octave - the beats become so strong that there is no perceived difference in the pitch as 1:2 - and so it is the same pitch at the octave.

 

Quote

“If the frequency difference is one hertz (one vibration per second), then you hear an interference beat every second.... But you probably found that, when the frequencies differed by 3 Hz, you needed (very roughly) about a third of a second. When they differed by 1 Hz, you needed more time. So, roughly speaking, if the frequencies differ by Δf, then you need a time of 1/Δf to notice.” 

 

So you have these different "heights" of geometry as pitch but at the same time as harmony - but the brain perceives them to be all in the same "space" - as a kind of 5th dimension. And since frequency is right brain perceived then it is stored in the visual memory as a deeper memory tied to the cerebellum - the deeper brain tied to the motor cortex with motion.

 

So there is a close connection between the emotion and motion via the cerebellum - and so even if people get brain damage like stroke or dementia or parkinsons or alzheimers - if they hear music, especially their favorite songs - this activates their deep brain memories. So the person becomes lucid in their thinking while listening to the music and for a while after wards - and their body movements are better synchronized. Humans stand out in this synchronization of time and emotional frequency.

 

 

Edited April 25, 2018 by voidisyinyang

[Rara]

3 hours ago, Lataif said:

 

(1) Well . . . Sufism understands Music to have an objective quality that can

be experienced.

 

(2) And I'm confident that's true.

 

(3) But I've been looking at possible ways to demonstrate it . . . and it's problematical,

as one would expect. 

 

There sure is an objective quality, but I'm not sure this really aplloes to the Billboard Top 40.

 

Progressive rock would always top the charts if that were the case imo

[Lataif]

17 hours ago, Rara said:

 

There sure is an objective quality, but I'm not sure this really aplloes to the Billboard Top 40.

 

Progressive rock would always top the charts if that were the case imo

 

(1) Well . . . this is where the conversation gets tricky, and why

there's no general agreement.

 

(2) I'm not arguing that EVERY person reacts the SAME  way to

a piece of Music ALL of the time.

 

(3) I don't think it's necessary for that to be the case for Music

to have objective qualities.

 

(4) Instead, the fact that a LOT of people react the SAME way to

a piece of Music SOME of the time . . . seems to me  like a

compelling enough argument.

 

(5) But is it (?)

 

(6) I'm more interested here in the QUALITY of the argument . . .

than I am in the actual facts.

 

Thanks . . .

[Rara]

12 minutes ago, Lataif said:

 

(1) Well . . . this is where the conversation gets tricky, and why

there's no general agreement.

 

(2) I'm not arguing that EVERY person reacts the SAME  way to

a piece of Music ALL of the time.

 

(3) I don't think it's necessary for that to be the case for Music

to have objective qualities.

 

(4) Instead, the fact that a LOT of people react the SAME way to

a piece of Music SOME of the time . . . seems to me  like a

compelling enough argument.

 

(5) But is it (?)

 

(6) I'm more interested here in the QUALITY of the argument . . .

than I am in the actual facts.

 

Thanks . . .

 

Some answers for you...

 

2) No, correct. "Popular music" has a shelf life. Also listener's mood, etc will affect decision making in buying/listening. But I think there is still an argument to be made why the majority of people make a choice. What is it about "Billie Jean" that makes EVERYONE stand up and dance in a bar? 

 

3) Yep. Most of the best music is crap (if you ask an academic musician)

[voidisyinyang]

 

this doc is all about marketing of music and how it has destroyed western civilization. haha.

[Marblehead]

What an extremely biased documentary!

 

[voidisyinyang]

On 4/26/2018 at 10:21 AM, Lataif said:

 

(1) Well . . . this is where the conversation gets tricky, and why

there's no general agreement.

 

(2) I'm not arguing that EVERY person reacts the SAME  way to

a piece of Music ALL of the time.

 

(3) I don't think it's necessary for that to be the case for Music

to have objective qualities.

 

(4) Instead, the fact that a LOT of people react the SAME way to

a piece of Music SOME of the time . . . seems to me  like a

compelling enough argument.

 

(5) But is it (?)

 

(6) I'm more interested here in the QUALITY of the argument . . .

than I am in the actual facts.

 

Thanks . . .

http://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2018/04/a-quiet-place-film-quantum-biology.html

My music analysis of the new movie A Quiet Place - watch out - I reveal the plot quite a bit. haha.