What's the use of schools and lineages within Taoism in the Modern World?

[Lost in Translation]

4 hours ago, Starjumper said:

This is the problem with certificates.  Some certificates have real meaning and value while others amount to so much toilet paper.

 

This is a problem. With so many people - and so many transitory people - it is nearly impossible to personally vet everyone that we choose to work with or train with. In the olden days this was solved by simply asking someone who had worked with or trained with someone, i.e. a reference. But even that falls short in our burgeoning population. So what do we do? We create proxy organizations to do the vetting for us! These proxy organizations issue "certificates" and "diplomas", hence we know what's what.

 

But do we really? Do we really know what's what? This is a problem. I don't know how to solve it.

[Lost in Translation]

4 hours ago, Marblehead said:

4 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

Got loads of certificates.  

Yeah, they sure look good on the wall after being framed and mounted.  I have a few.  They haven't prevented me from getting old though.

 

I got one from "Utopia University" with a "Bachelor of Arts in B.S." I hung it on my wall! (Thank you, Adam and Dennis!)

[Stosh]

People often say I'm certifiable, I'm not sure what it means , but I think it has to do with putting odd things that don't fit , in some sort of box. 

[Lost in Translation]

14 minutes ago, Stosh said:

People often say I'm certifiable, I'm not sure what it means , but I think it has to do with putting odd things that don't fit , in some sort of box. 

 

The "DaoBox?" LOL!

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, Lost in Translation said:

6 hours ago, Starjumper said:

This is the problem with certificates.  Some certificates have real meaning and value while others amount to so much toilet paper.

 

This is a problem. With so many people - and so many transitory people - it is nearly impossible to personally vet everyone that we choose to work with or train with. In the olden days this was solved by simply asking someone who had worked with or trained with someone, i.e. a reference. But even that falls short in our burgeoning population. So what do we do? We create proxy organizations to do the vetting for us! These proxy organizations issue "certificates" and "diplomas", hence we know what's what.

 

But do we really? Do we really know what's what? This is a problem. I don't know how to solve it.

 

Let me just add this: I struggled with the entire notion of "certificated" for years when I was young. I thought they were BS, so I eschewed them. But as I made my way through life I repeatedly found doors closed to me for lack of one. It was in the early thirties that I bit the bullet and finally went back to school and picked up my BS degree. I had already been working in my field for more than five years in a senior capacity before I was received my diploma, and most of my "education" was spent teaching my fellow students, but I got it. Since them I have continued to earn an MS degree, and I again did this mainly just to open doors.

 

My advise to anyone who is struggling in this regard, ask yourself this: which is the path of least resistance, of Tao? Does getting a "certificate" harm you. or does it open doors for you? Does it violate your Te, your integrity? Make no mistake, a certificate is not the same as knowledge or capacity,  but it IS a key that CAN open doors, so does it have value?

[wandelaar]

45 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

The "DaoBox?" LOL!

 

Well - there actually is such a thing. See:

 

 

Every day I read a card.

 

[Stosh]

4 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Let me just add this: I struggled with the entire notion of "certificated" for years when I was young. I thought they were BS, so I eschewed them. But as I made my way through life I repeatedly found doors closed to me for lack of one. It was in the early thirties that I bit the bullet and finally went back to school and picked up my BS degree. I had already been working in my field for more than five years in a senior capacity before I was received my diploma, and most of my "education" was spent teaching my fellow students, but I got it. Since them I have continued to earn an MS degree, and I again did this mainly just to open doors.

 

My advise to anyone who is struggling in this regard, ask yourself this: which is the path of least resistance, of Tao? Does getting a "certificate" harm you. or does it open doors for you? Does it violate your Te, your integrity? Make no mistake, a certificate is not the same as knowledge or capacity,  but it IS a key that CAN open doors, so does it have value?

Well , though one can benefit from the certs, and the process of getting them , the value is not intrinsic in the paper IMO. 

Whether its a violation of ones integrity , to present certifications which indicate skills one does not actually have ..conventionally speaking ,, No,  its not an act of integrity, since its still an act of deception being done to escape the ramifications of what one is, objectively speaking,  that is ,,  if it's not just a silly formality.    

But by all means one should go out and do what it takes to get valid certifications, and if it really is just a formality. 

I doubt anyone wants to deal with pros that have phony credentials. 

 

[Alchemical Walrus]

The books!!

I mean once every single Daoist text in every single Daoist canon of every single Daoist school has been gathered together and virtualized, then perhaps there is no use to their existence.

Until then, I think that preserving the texts is a valid reason for existing in and of itself. Daoist texts (outside of the well known, main texts) are so spread out among different schools and sects that there's probably a whole lot of obscure texts out there that we don't know about hidden among the canon of this-or-that-school.

[Lost in Translation]

4 hours ago, Stosh said:

Well , though one can benefit from the certs, and the process of getting them , the value is not intrinsic in the paper IMO. 

 

Of course.

 

4 hours ago, Stosh said:

Whether its a violation of ones integrity , to present certifications which indicate skills one does not actually have ..conventionally speaking ,, No,  its not an act of integrity, since its still an act of deception being done to escape the ramifications of what one is, objectively speaking

 

I don't know where you got this. Nothing in my post mentioned presenting certifications that indicate skills one does not have. That would certainly be a violation of integrity, and possibly the law.

 

4 hours ago, Stosh said:

But by all means one should go out and do what it takes to get valid certifications, and if it really is just a formality.

 

Yes. This is what I was emphasizing. If you already have the skills but lack the "credentials" then get the credentials. Why fight "the man?"

 

4 hours ago, Stosh said:

I doubt anyone wants to deal with pros that have phony credentials. 

 

Agreed, 100%. But again, this was not what I meant to convey.

[Taoist Texts]

There is no 'modern world'. There is china and the rest of the world. In China, their use is what it has always been. In the rest of the world they do not exist.

[Stosh]

10 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Of course.

 

 

I don't know where you got this. Nothing in my post mentioned presenting certifications that indicate skills one does not have. That would certainly be a violation of integrity, and possibly the law.

 

 

Yes. This is what I was emphasizing. If you already have the skills but lack the "credentials" then get the credentials. Why fight "the man?"

 

 

Agreed, 100%. But again, this was not what I meant to convey.

Then what would be? I agree you do need the papers , one shouldn't try to avoid them to 'be real' ,

but I wanted to draw a refusal line at saying that they do have intrinsic value , because they are treated as if they do.

( which is not understanding that the word 'intrinsic' is in the sentence for a reason )   

Ultimately I don't think we disagree at all. 

[Stosh]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

There is no 'modern world'. There is china and the rest of the world. In China, their use is what it has always been. In the rest of the world they do not exist.

So there is a,  backward China , -  and a modern, 'the  rest- of- the -world' ? 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

So there is a,  backward China , -  and a modern, 'the  rest- of- the -world' ? 

No) backward or modern are irrelevant here. Daoism exists in China only.

[Stosh]

12 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

 

 

 

.. nope Nah, Im not continuing with this .

Edited May 4, 2018 by Stosh

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

No) backward or modern are irrelevant here. Daoism exists in China only.

 

That's a very interesting assertion. Is this unique to Daoism or can it be applied to others? Could we say that Buddhism exists in India only, or that Catholicism exists in Italy only, etc.? How are you defining Daoism in this regard? Are you referring specifically to the religious aspect, or the internal arts, or something else?

 

I find your comment intriguing and think this deserves deeper explanation.

 

[edit] Also, what do you mean by "China?" I know that question sounds idiotic, but a great many Chinese people have migrated out of Asia, and they have taken their language and culture with them, including Daoism. Do you mean the country of China, or the Chinese people, etc?

Edited May 4, 2018 by Lost in Translation

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

.. nope Nah, Im not continuing with this .

But Lost in Translation picked it up.  This might be fun.

 

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

But Lost in Translation picked it up.  This might be fun.

 

Just fine with me , I'm just in a bit of a mood and I will go too far, too easy, and harry folks I like. 

[Rara]

On 01/05/2018 at 10:56 PM, Starjumper said:

 Taoist 'philosophy' removed from the arts is a sad little Western invention which I see as being essentially useless.

 

I almost liked your post, but I have to disagree with this. Saaawy!

 

The philosophy can be applied away from the arts, in everyday life, right? Tai chi didn't exist back in Lao Tzu's day...

[Rara]

On 01/05/2018 at 11:47 PM, wandelaar said:

Well - I also consider Taoist philosophy without any form of practice as a sterile approach. But the practice doesn't have to be Martial Arts, Chi Gong, or those kind of things. I do however consider meditation of some form essential, and there are references in Lao tse and Chuang tse to meditative practices. But the most important Taoist art connected to Taoist philosophy would naturally be "the art of living well".

 

Sure. Again it comes down to what meditation really is, and I can only really say doing things with a calm focus really applies.

 

I may be a sucker for Tai Chi these days, but one could obtain Tao from cooking amazing dishes imo

[Rara]

On 03/05/2018 at 12:15 PM, Wu Ming Jen said:

The modern long linage schools are very old yet present today. Living arts make this possible. my lineage is unbroken for only 600 years so in context it is modern. The knowledge of its foundation is from 5000 years written and 8000 plus years of prehistory.

 

[Starjumper]

22 minutes ago, Rara said:

I almost liked your post, but I have to disagree with this. Saaawy!

 

That's OK, I like you anyway; no problem with your not understanding 

 

Quote

The philosophy can be applied away from the arts, in everyday life, right? Tai chi didn't exist back in Lao Tzu's day...

 

Yes the philosophy can be applied to everyday life if it helps a person understand and flow with the way things are going.  If it helps them understand the cyclical nature of good and bad fortune and possibly a few other things.  Those are kind of superficial things though that 'should' be in the general understandings of life whether it comes from Taoism or not.

 

I prefer to look a little deeper into the TTC, like for example when it says what the ancient sages were like.  Well it speaks in that manner because it doesn't want to tell people how to act.  What it does is it tells people how highly developed people act and those who want to become highly developed will also aim for those goals.  Most do not want to do the work required to become highly developed and so it doesn't pertain to them.  The important point I would like to make is that these developments are only a result of high quality meditational/cultivation practices and not via only reading and mentally wishing.  Fake it till you make it works for just a short while before it breaks down and a person's previous nature returns.

 

So the comments about the nature of the sage are more like signposts along the Way.  After you get to one of the signposts then you realize what it's talking about, and not the other way around.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

Quote

Well it speaks in that manner because it doesn't want to tell people how to act.

 

That would require some rules of thumb, wouldn't it?  The fifty commandments.

[Rara]

7 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

That's OK, I like you anyway; no problem with your not understanding 

 

 

Yes the philosophy can be applied to everyday life if it helps a person understand and flow with the way things are going.  If it helps them understand the cyclical nature of good and bad fortune and possibly a few other things.  Those are kind of superficial things though that 'should' be in the general understandings of life whether it comes from Taoism or not.

 

I prefer to look a little deeper into the TTC, like for example when it says what the ancient sages were like.  Well it speaks in that manner because it doesn't want to tell people how to act.  What it does is it tells people how highly developed people act and those who want to become highly developed will also aim for those goals.  Most do not want to do the work required to become highly developed and so it doesn't pertain to them.  The important point I would like to make is that these developments are only a result of high quality meditational/cultivation practices and not via only reading and mentally wishing.  Fake it till you make it works for just a short while before it breaks down and a person's previous nature returns.

 

So the comments about the nature of the sage are more like signposts along the Way.  After you get to one of the signposts then you realize what it's talking about, and not the other way around.

 

 

 

I wish I knew how to multi-quote. I like you too and poke you back for not explaining well first time

 

To paragraph two, yes, good point.

 

Your third paragraph, yes because the sage who has the Way, you might struggle to find him or her. Good practitioners too, because they're out there practicing, not preaching.

 

I would like to add that the arts that emerged only 600 years ago, are fine interpretations of Taoism.

 

My point is, whether it's Tai Chi, or any other skill, surely it's the method and approach that is important, rather than what you practice...

[silent thunder]

what has value?

 

what is valuable... what is value?

 

A cup with no hollow may have great value (made of gold, or gifted by a loved one to express connection and love), but having no hollow, it would be of little use...  being useless, would this diminish its value?

 

who determines what value exists?

who determines when value is extinguished?

 

who is the arbiter of how much and for how long value exists?

 

is value universal?

is what has value for you now, what you valued when you were an infant?  a toddler?  a student?  a parent/teacher?

 

what is value?

 

[Stosh]

quantification of impact on reward, as determined by the end user , is value.