The absurd Truth, hiding in plain sight...

[dwai]

http://www.mukti.world/2018/05/the-absurd-truth-hiding-in-plain-sight.html?m=1

[Marblehead]

I don't necessarily agree with everything said but it is a good article.

 

[dwai]

6 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I don't necessarily agree with everything said but it is a good article.

 

Please share your thoughts

[Marblehead]

Just now, dwai said:

Please share your thoughts

Not yet.  I don't want to influence anyone's thoughts.

 

[Nungali]

Too late  .

[Bindi]

Coming from a channels and energy point of view, how can we already be liberated if the channels haven't been cleared and traversed properly? Yoga schools understand ida and pingala have to be cleared, and then the central channel, how can this sort of immediate realisation be possible if the energy journey hasn't been completed? A mental attitude isn't realisation. From an alchemical Daoist perspective an immortal spirit is realisation. An immortal spirit isn't realised just by a notion. 

[dwai]

12 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Coming from a channels and energy point of view, how can we already be liberated if the channels haven't been cleared and traversed properly? Yoga schools understand ida and pingala have to be cleared, and then the central channel, how can this sort of immediate realisation be possible if the energy journey hasn't been completed? A mental attitude isn't realisation. From an alchemical Daoist perspective an immortal spirit is realisation. An immortal spirit isn't realised just by a notion. 

That is a very dualistic mode of thinking. And it’s okay if you believe that. But it’s not the Truth being alluded to in this article.  

[Bindi]

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

That is a very dualistic mode of thinking. And it’s okay if you believe that. But it’s not the Truth being alluded to in this article.  

 

Is the Daoist concept of producing an immortal spirit dualistic? 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

 

Is the Daoist concept of producing an immortal spirit dualistic? 

Yes 

[Bindi]

There is one writer taking on nonduality and he is a lot clearer on the problem of nonduality than I am.  Though I might not agree with what he says 100%, it's a great start at putting forward an alternative and I would suggest healthier spirituality. 

 

Freeing the Mind From the Prison of Non-duality

[johndoe2012]

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

Coming from a channels and energy point of view, how can we already be liberated if the channels haven't been cleared and traversed properly? 

 

asks the mind 

[johndoe2012]

I like listening to Tony Parsons

 

http://theopensecret.com/

[Michael Sternbach]

Yes, it's a good article. Alan Watts (whom I read alot in earlier days) was also ceaselessly highlighting the "we are already liberated" idea. It's an important (quite comforting) realization that this is true in regards to our innermost being. It might well be a mile stone. Probably most seekers have them at some stage.

 

But does this alone turn them into fully enlightened and liberated individuals? I'm afraid, no. Not until the totality of the body-mind has been brought in tune with this already liberated innermost being. Conflicts must be faced and resolved in the light of wisdom. Traumas must be overcome. Layer upon layer need to be worked through. Which is generally a long (but worthwhile) journey.

[johndoe2012]

.

Edited June 10, 2018 by johndoe2012

[Michael Sternbach]

Well, we can expand our awareness, yet we must always start from and return to our individual self.

[Marblehead]

Interesting responses and comments.  Again, I'm not suggesting that I agree with all of them.

 

I need to go back to the article in the opening post.

 

Was the conclusion that awareness is an essence in and of itself?  That is the picture I saw.  That is what I do not agree with.

 

I think that there is confusion between the concepts of awareness and non-duality.

 

Non-duality is the universe without any subjective valuation.  The "What is" factor.

 

Awareness is the act of acknowledging this factor.  All spiritual dogma are aspects of the "What is" as presented by the subjective valuations of man.

 

So the article is about liberation.  Okay.  Liberated from what?  From conditions that seem to be controlling us?  

 

I doubt such a state will exist.  We are controlled by the physics of the manifest (material) universe.

 

Sure, One is non-dualistic.  But One gave birth to Two.  Oh, No!!!  Duality!!!  You and me; no longer "us".

 

Duality is "you and me".  Awareness is acknowledging this.  Awareness is also acknowledging that "you and me" are aspects of One.

 

If we accept this, where is the need for liberation? 

[Stosh]

Nicely elucidated Mh.

[Fa Xin]

4 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Yes, it's a good article. Alan Watts (whom I read alot in earlier days) was also ceaselessly highlighting the "we are already liberated" idea. It's an important (quite comforting) realization that this is true in regards to our innermost being. It might well be a mile stone. Probably most seekers have them at some stage.

 

But does this alone turn them into fully enlightened and liberated individuals? I'm afraid, no. Not until the totality of the body-mind has been brought in tune with this already liberated innermost being. Conflicts must be faced and resolved in the light of wisdom. Traumas must be overcome. Layer upon layer need to be worked through. Which is generally a long (but worthwhile) journey.

Agreed here. I think the recognizing of “your already liberated” starts the process of things falling away. Up until that point, the idea seems very far away, like “maybe in another lifetime”, or “can’t happen to me”. It’s a lot like over coming a personal block of “I’m not good enough”. It puts the whole world within your reach if you realize it wasn’t out of reach to begin with. 

 

Just my take at the moment. 

[dwai]

4 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Interesting responses and comments.  Again, I'm not suggesting that I agree with all of them.

 

I need to go back to the article in the opening post.

 

Was the conclusion that awareness is an essence in and of itself?  That is the picture I saw.  That is what I do not agree with.

 

I think that there is confusion between the concepts of awareness and non-duality.

What does anyone know about anything without awareness? By Awareness, I mean "that which makes knowing possible". 

 

Quote

 

Non-duality is the universe without any subjective valuation.  The "What is" factor.

 

Awareness is the act of acknowledging this factor.  All spiritual dogma are aspects of the "What is" as presented by the subjective valuations of man.

It takes awareness to conceptualize this too. The universe is just a dream. 

Quote

 

So the article is about liberation.  Okay.  Liberated from what?  From conditions that seem to be controlling us?  

 

I doubt such a state will exist.  We are controlled by the physics of the manifest (material) universe.

Is our suffering controlled by the physics of the material universe? We suffer because we resist change. We stop suffering when we realize there is nothing to resist. Liberation is freedom from suffering.

Quote

 

Sure, One is non-dualistic.  But One gave birth to Two.  Oh, No!!!  Duality!!!  You and me; no longer "us".

 

Duality is "you and me".  Awareness is acknowledging this.  Awareness is also acknowledging that "you and me" are aspects of One.

 

If we accept this, where is the need for liberation? 

In a round about way, you are reinforcing the gist of the OP. There is no need for liberation, because no one was bound in the first place. The bondage is a misidentification. 

Edited May 2, 2018 by dwai

[thelerner]

From a different perspective, I thought season 1, of the HBO series Westworld had some fascinating insights into awareness.  A bit depressing perhaps, but it came at it from an interesting angle, ie that we've built up a mythology around awareness when its more like, a few moving lines being written.   Controlled by our sensors, and constantly re-writing scripts from our past. 

 

Right now, my senses while mostly ignored are sending streams of bits to my CPU/brain.   My focus is on a screen, I don't feel the keys until I move my awareness to think about them.  I write and dip into my past, accessing subroutines and programs/skills, unconsciously. 

 

Putting my focus on focus itself and I stutter.. slow down. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by thelerner

[dwai]

44 minutes ago, thelerner said:

From a different perspective, I thought season 1, of the HBO series Westworld had some fascinating insights insights into awareness.  A bit depressing perhaps, but it came at it from an interesting angle, ie that we've built up a mythology around awareness when its more like, a few moving lines being written.   Controlled by our sensors, and constantly re-writing scripts from our past. 

 

Right now, my senses while mostly ignored are sending streams of bits to my CPU/brain.   My focus is on a screen, I don't feel the keys until I move my awareness to think about them.  I write and dip into my past, accessing subroutines and programs/skills, unconsciously. 

 

Putting my focus on focus itself and I stutter.. slow down. 

So do you belong to the "consciousness rises out of matter via a strange and happy accident of the universe" category of people?

Edited May 2, 2018 by dwai

[wandelaar]

The problem with the article is that it starts out well by looking at the reasons people have to search for something beyond life as it seems to be, but then suddenly switches to promoting its own dogmatic solution.

Edited May 2, 2018 by wandelaar

[wandelaar]

How could a blow to the head cause one to lose consciousness when consciousness is the basic stuff of the universe and matter (including human bodies) are just illusory appearances?

 

(Don't try this at home!)

Edited May 2, 2018 by wandelaar

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

What does anyone know about anything without awareness? By Awareness, I mean "that which makes knowing possible". 

 

It takes awareness to conceptualize this too. The universe is just a dream. 

 

Is our suffering controlled by the physics of the material universe? We suffer because we resist change. We stop suffering when we realize there is nothing to resist. Liberation is freedom from suffering.

 

In a round about way, you are reinforcing the gist of the OP. There is no need for liberation, because no one was bound in the first place. The bondage is a misidentification. 

Actually, I am more in agreement with the article than I am opposed to what it suggests.

 

My biggest opposition is and still is the source or awareness.  Awareness is a biological function requiring a functioning brain or perhaps also a computer with sensing input.  Awareness does not lie outside us.  It is within us.

 

Suffering comes from many sources.  Yes, we will suffer if we resist change that is required.  But then, some changes I will not make and I don't suffer because of it.  Oftentimes I am more at peace than I would have been had I changed with the external changes.

 

Resistance to change is something to be proud of if the changes would not have been in our best interest.  Aren't free will and choices great?

 

[Marblehead]

13 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

How could a blow to the head cause one to lose consciousness when consciousness is the basic stuff of the universe and matter (including human bodies) are just illusory appearances.

Are you really sure you want to ask that question?