How are the trigrams and hexagrams related?

[Phoenix3]

Ancient opinions are appreciated if anyone knows of any quotes.

[Harmen]

Ehrm....hexagrams are made of trigrams? 

 

 

[Phoenix3]

Yeah. I know that. 

 

What I mean is, the trigrams are ordered in a specific way and each have a specific meaning. How do the patterns and meanings of each trigram also apply to each hexagram?

 

and why were the hexagrams created in the first place? Weren’t the trigrams good enough?

[Harmen]

23 minutes ago, Phoenix3 said:

and why were the hexagrams created in the first place? Weren’t the trigrams good enough?

 

To begin with your last point: your question seems to assume that trigams were 'invented' before the hexagrams, and that is a topic that is still debated. What we do know from old documents like the Shifa 筮法 manuscript is that the interpretation of hexagrams relied heavily on the interpretation, place and significance of the trigrams. Hexagrams were always seen as a combination of trigrams, and the 'first trigrams and then hexagrams' origin assumption might be a fallacy.

 

Quote

What I mean is, the trigrams are ordered in a specific way and each have a specific meaning. How do the patterns and meanings of each trigram also apply to each hexagram?

 

To answer this I need to know the framework from which this question originates. In what order do you think the trigrams are ordered, and what do you see as 'the patterns and meanings of each trigram'? What are the sources for your questions?

[OldDog]

On 5/3/2018 at 6:56 AM, Harmen said:

To begin with your last point: your question seems to assume that trigams were 'invented' before the hexagrams, and that is a topic that is still debated. What we do know from old documents like the Shifa 筮法 manuscript is that the interpretation of hexagrams relied heavily on the interpretation, place and significance of the trigrams. Hexagrams were always seen as a combination of trigrams, and the 'first trigrams and then hexagrams' origin assumption might be a fallacy.

 

This is quite remarkable. I think I had understood the trigrams as originating from about the time, if not by, Fuxi with earliest hexagrams appearing a little later around the time of Shang dynasty. Seems improbable that the more complex hexagrams came before the trigrams.

 

Yet you speak with such conviction that trigrams might not have preceded the hexagrams. So, I am forced to ask: What evidence suggests that the trigrams may not have come first?

[Phoenix3]

On 03/05/2018 at 12:56 PM, Harmen said:

 

To begin with your last point: your question seems to assume that trigams were 'invented' before the hexagrams, and that is a topic that is still debated. What we do know from old documents like the Shifa 筮法 manuscript is that the interpretation of hexagrams relied heavily on the interpretation, place and significance of the trigrams. Hexagrams were always seen as a combination of trigrams, and the 'first trigrams and then hexagrams' origin assumption might be a fallacy.

 

 

To answer this I need to know the framework from which this question originates. In what order do you think the trigrams are ordered, and what do you see as 'the patterns and meanings of each trigram'? What are the sources for your questions?

 

Personally i’m not concerned about the trigram orderings simply because I have no idea which is right and which is wrong. Maybe they’re all wrong. Maybe they’re all right in their own way. Maybe only one is right. I don’t know.

 

the reason why i’m asking is, why 6 lines, with 64 different combinations? Why didn’t they just use trigrams? If not, why not use 4 lines, or 5 lines, or maybe 7 or 8 lines? Why 6 lines?

[Harmen]

13 hours ago, OldDog said:

 

This is quite remarkable. I think I had understood the trigrams as originating from about the time, if not by, Fuxi with earliest hexagrams appearing a little later around the time of Shang dynasty. Seems improbable that the more complex hexagrams came before the trigrams.

 

Yet you speak with such conviction that trigrams might not have preceded the hexagrams. So, I am forced to ask: What evidence suggests that the trigrams may not have come first?

 

There is no evidence that the trigrams came first nor is there evidence that the hexagrams came first. All we can see from the (excavated) material is that hexagrams were quite early seen as a combination of trigrams. What we do know is that the trigrams did not come after the hexagrams, something that Cyrille Javary and Steve Moore suggested in their books. Of course I know of the legend that talks about Fu Xi and Wen Wang etc., but I don't attach much value to that. The earliest sources for the hexagrams go back to the late Shang dynasty and as far as I know we don't have any related info from before that time. 

 

8 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

Personally i’m not concerned about the trigram orderings simply because I have no idea which is right and which is wrong. Maybe they’re all wrong. Maybe they’re all right in their own way. Maybe only one is right. I don’t know.

 

The oldest sequence (and as far as I'm concerned the only one that matters) is the Houtian Bagua 後天八卦. There are no 'right' or 'wrong' sequences - they all have their specific origin and application.

 

8 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

the reason why i’m asking is, why 6 lines, with 64 different combinations? Why didn’t they just use trigrams? If not, why not use 4 lines, or 5 lines, or maybe 7 or 8 lines? Why 6 lines?

 

I have no idea! Maybe the number 6 was important to diviners, or it was convenient because it can be divided by 2 and 3. The Jing Jue 荊決 manuscript that was donated to the Beijing University in 2009 and is dated Western Han dynasty contains 'trigrams' that are made from the numbers 1-4, resulting in 64 possible combinations (although only 32 are given in the manuscript.) For some reason the number of lines is 3 or 6 (the Taixuan Jing 太玄經 is an exception with its 4-line symbols but that book was na deliberate construction by its author while the Zhouyi seems to have grown organically over time.) What we do know is that hexagrams and trigrams were made of numbers. The Wangjiatai Gui Cang was found with sets of 6-sided dice (see image) with numbers on them. They might be related to the old ways of generating hexagrams.

[wandelaar]

Could the number 12 = 2 * 6 have anything to do with it? See:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_(number)

 

It's a natural choice for time reckoning, periodical phenomena and changes in nature. And as 12 would possibly be to cumbersome, 6 might be considered second best?

[Harmen]

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Could the number 12 = 2 * 6 have anything to do with it? See:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_(number)

 

It's a natural choice for time reckoning, periodical phenomena and changes in nature. And as 12 would possibly be to cumbersome, 6 might be considered second best?

 

That is not a bad suggestion, after all the hexagrams come in pairs - not only in the Zhouyi itself but also in many early manuscripts like the Shifa, Baoshan  & Xincai Geling divination records.

[wandelaar]

Yes - it would be a nice natural explanation, because 12 months fit into a year. So the number 12 is suggested by our natural environment as having something to do with cycles of life and change. And because symbols consisting of 12 lines may have been too complicated to work with, using (pairs of) hexagrams may have been a good alternative.

[joeblast]

On 5/2/2018 at 9:40 PM, Phoenix3 said:

Ancient opinions are appreciated if anyone knows of any quotes.

"the inner inhales, the outer exhales"

-ancient joeblastian

[Lost in Translation]

Wilhelm/Baynes give a very good description of the composition of hexagrams and trigrams. In a nutshell, each trigram corresponds to an archetype, be it a family member, element in nature, direction, or body part. The upper trigram leads the lower trigram. In addition, there are "nuclear" trigrams that correspond to lines 3,4,5 and 2,3,4. These are used to create a second set of hexagrams that give clarification to the actual found hexagrams.

 

Within each hexagram the lines matter. Lines 1 and 2 refer to the Earth. Lines 3 and 4 refer to Man, and lines 5 and 6 refer to heaven. The "perfect" configuration is light and dark alternating. E.G. lines 1,3 and 5 are light (solid) and 2,4 and 6 are dark (separated). Deviation from this helps explain the various movements. Also, the first and 6th line are special. The first being the nascent condition and the sixth being the Sage. Lines 2-5 have their meanings too. Line 5 is the prince (ruler). It generally controls the hexagram (not always). The 4th line is the prince's trusted administrator (in the court) and line 2 is the prince's trusted governor (outside of the court). The 3rd line is ambiguous, but generally seems to equate to some kind of proxy for the prince.

 

The quality of the individual lines as related to their positions and the attributes of the composite trigrams are what give meaning to the hexagrams. This is a deep rabbit hole that I am still only just beginning to learn. One can spend a lifetime on this.