Mair 17:1-7

[Marblehead]

"What do you mean by heavenly and what do you mean by human?" asked the Earl of the Yellow River.

The Overlord of the Northern Sea said, "Oxen and horses having four feet is what is meant by 'heavenly.'  Putting a halter over a horse's head or piercing an ox's nose is what is meant by 'human.'  Therefore it is said,

'Do not destroy the heavenly with the human;
Do not destroy destiny with intentionality;
Do not sacrifice your good name for attainments:
If you guard this carefully and do not lose it,
You may be said to have returned to the truth.'

 

 

 

 

[wandelaar]

I think this refers to a very problematic issue: the difference between natural and unnatural. Is it unnatural to wear glasses? If so I wouldn't be able to read books any more. But perhaps that's natural as older people are no able to do everything younger people can. But than is it even natural to read books anyway? And so one quickly gets stuck in a quagmire of philosophical problems.

 

But as the way of Tao is supposed to be "following nature" it's an important issue anyway. How do other Bums see this? 

 

 

[Marblehead]

I'll sound off just in case no one else does.

 

Let's not take this "natural" thing too far.  We were born naked.  Wearing clothes could then be considered unnatural.  I think it is natural for a person with poor eyesight to want to have their vision corrected so that they can see more clearly.  Also natural to put on clothes before going outside unless we are at a nudist camp.

 

Sure, the horse was born free.  But man naturally found a use for a horse so the horse was imprisoned.  I think that if the horse is well cared for and allowed its freedom when not in use it is fine for the horse to help man and man thereby cares for the horse's well-being.

 

However, a tiger does not belong in a cage.  That is totally unnatural for the tiger.

 

[silent thunder]

I find this notion of naturalness has expanded rather radically from where it used to be in my life.  A nigh on 180 degree shift really.

 

What in the realm of the manifest, could be said to be 'unnatural'?  If it's manifest, it stems from its nature and nature flows from tao.

 

If all that manifests is part of nature, surely all that manifests is natural.  By proxy,  this extends to all manner of human activities that are condemned by the old classics and by modern eco-conscious folks and my old sentiments on the topic alike.  Yet let's take cities and plastics as an example.  I used to view cities as heinous scabs of unnatural imbalance.  Lately, I can't shake the palpable gut sense that cities are the utterly natural expressions of the social nature of humans... if there were only one city to ever form, perhaps I'd still consider it an anomoly and unnatural, but cities form wherever humans thrive... so cities, (and all of human endeavors for that matter) which I used to consider unnatural, are now no longer a source of bitter tension for me as they used to be.  They are the utterly natural expression of large herds of social humans.  The manner of my actions and behavior within cities alters pretty drastically, compared to my actions in less manufactured settings. 
 

Plastic thus is natural to me now, where it used to be anathema.  Cities are now utterly natural.  Even styrofoam is natural, though none of them may seem beneficial to my perception, I can't shake the sense that nothing in nature is wasted, s I cultivate the understanding that perhaps I just don't yet perceive how they will be utilized by nature.  They are a by-product of human activity.  Humans grow out of the very fabric of nature.  What humans do then, is not possible to be unnatural to my present perception of it anyway.

 

Even if cities and plastics and styrofoam result in the end of the human species... is this unnatural?  Countless species have risen, endured and died off, from their own actions and the actions of nature upon them throughout all of manifest phenomenal history.

 

The sense of the use of the concept natural seems more... what is beneficial and harmful and what actions within each realm of nature are conducive to living spontaneously in the flow of nature from tao?

 

I think this is the context of the word natural here.  So perhaps I'm being persnickity here and arguing semantics... but that's just like me.  Niggling over the meanings of words.   These days my wife rolls her big beautiful blue eyes dramatically and mocking calls out 'oh lord!... Semantics!  Again with the Semantics!'

[Stosh]

The line between unnatural and natural is a fuzzy one .

It's somewhere in between things being able to live according to their nature , (promoting their own welfare and so forth), and being pushed into crazy situations where the options are self destructive.

To be crushed by always losing, trapped by being imprisoned, abused and not be able to escape, not be recognized or cared for , find personal meaning and so forth.. Never being allowed to be at peace , to rest easy , to be satisfied ,and function normally

- that's -what this brand of unnatural means. 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

It's alright to work with the nature of things, but it's quite another issue to violate their nature.

[wandelaar]

40 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

It's alright to work with the nature of things, but it's quite another issue to violate their nature.

 

So "following nature" could be described as not violating one's nature?

[Stosh]

different connotations of the 'N' word methinks.

[Michael Sternbach]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

So "following nature" could be described as not violating one's nature?

 

Right. Yours as well as anything else's.