Paradoxes in Chapter 41

[wandelaar]

See: http://www.wussu.com/laotzu/laotzu41.html

 

The first part of this chapter has already been discussed elsewhere. I like to hear what the Bums have to say on the second part (the part beginning with:  "Hence it is said"). My personal impression is that all those paradoxes are variants of "don't overdo things". But is that right? And if it is, is that all there is to it?

 

[Kar3n]

Sounds to me he is talking about the mental images we have and that things are not always what they appear to be when looking at them from our conditioned state.

 

 

[wandelaar]

Lets take the first one: "The bright path seems dim".

 

Not overdoing things would than mean: "Taking a Taoist path will be anything but spectacular, and don't make a show of it either". So a Taoist path will seem to be the path of an outcast or insignificant nobody from the perspective of ordinary men. (Unless of course you happen to be the emperor or another high official, but even than Lao tse advises to proceed in a humble fashion.)

 

Do you see something else in the paradox beyond my rational explanation?

Edited May 6, 2018 by wandelaar

[blue eyed snake]

I've read that as examples of how every thing carries the seed of the opposite .

like the dots in the  yin yang symbol

 

 

[dawei]

17 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Lets take the first one: "The bright path seems dim".

 

To add another to your point, recall that elsewhere LZ said:

 

ch. 70 - Lin Yutang

 

My teachings are very easy to understand 

   and very easy to practice, 
But no one can understand them and 
   no one can practice them.

 

I'm getting ahead of you as this applies more directly to two lines later... but it is the basic principle that jumps out at me.

[Lost in Translation]

Starting with "The bright path seems dim", these stanzas can be grouped in pairs. Each pair works togerher. Subsequent pairs slightly alter the focus of the whole.

[Kar3n]

39 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Lets take the first one: "The bright path seems dim".

 

Not overdoing things would than mean: "Taking a Taoist path will be anything but spectacular, and don't make a show of it either". So a Taoist path will seem to be the path of an outcast or insignificant  nobody from the perspective of ordinary men. (Unless of course you happen to be the emperor or another high official, but even than Lao tse advises to proceed in a humble fashion.)

 

Do you see something else in the paradox beyond my rational explanation?

For me to see it as anything else right now would be for me to accept your interpretation as my own, and I do not. That's the beauty of a discussion, everyone brings their own thoughts to the table.

 

I am not seeing how this pertains to over doing anything other than thinking and applying what we have been conditioned to expect.

 

I think he is saying that just because you don't see it doesn't mean that it's not there and vise versa.

[cheya]

28 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

Starting with "The bright path seems dim", these stanzas can be grouped in pairs. Each pair works togerher. Subsequent pairs slightly alter the focus of the whole.

Interested in how you see the pairs working together... 

 

Edited May 6, 2018 by cheya

[wandelaar]

53 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

I've read that as examples of how every thing carries the seed of the opposite .

like the dots in the  yin yang symbol

 

Can "carries the seed of the opposite" also mean seeming to be its opposite, or do you mean something deeper?

[Lost in Translation]

25 minutes ago, cheya said:

Interested in how you see the pairs working together... 

 

It's just something that caught my attention. Here are what I see as the highlights of each pair:

 

Pair 1: dim, retreat

   - "It's the wrong way, yo!"

 

Pair 2: hard , empty

   - "Dude, why you be so stupid?"

 

Pair 3: sullied, inadequate

   - "Man, you a fool. Throw your life away if you want, I'm outta here!"

 

Pair 4: frail, unreal

   - "Can you believe this worthless idiot, threw his life away..."

 

Then the shift...

[cheya]

I looked at a few other translations of this, and was still not getting any clarity...so I went to Ellen Chen's translation and commentary (in her book).. which always helps me...

 

Her commentary is expansive and specific, but her overall comment is "Every line in this quote brings out the hidden nature of Tao, explaining why Tao is so neglected by the ordinary consciousness." That works for me.

[wandelaar]

11 minutes ago, cheya said:

I looked at a few other translations of this, and was still not getting any clarity...so I went to Ellen Chen's translation and commentary (in her book).. which always helps me...

 

Her commentary is expansive and specific, but her overall comment is "Every line in this quote brings out the hidden nature of Tao, explaining why Tao is so neglected by the ordinary consciousness." That works for me.

 

So what is your interpretation of: "The bright path seems dim"?

[Kar3n]

All that glitters is not golden...

[wandelaar]

1 minute ago, Kar3n said:

All that glitters is not golden...

 

But are there no specific meanings to the sentences?

[cheya]

 

5 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

So what is your interpretation of: "The bright path seems dim"?

 

My interpretation? lol

How about I give you hers?

 

She groups the first three lines together by subject (Tao)

 Re the first line, she says:

"The illuminating Tao appears dark— Ming, the light that illuminates at night, is the opposite of kiang, the bright light belonging to day. Ming is the mystical light of the round, illuminating both the coming out and return of all beings."

[Kar3n]

1 minute ago, wandelaar said:

 

But are there no specific meanings to the sentences?

At this point, for me, no. My mind is still too conditioned to even begin to pick apart what he means on a deeper level, if there is a deeper meaning. Lao Tzu was a pretty simple, yet deep man.

[OldDog]

I looked at a number of translations but all of them seem to avoid these verses at end of Ch 41. Taking them altogether I come away with this:

 

The Dao is difficult to follow but especially so if you are using a mind that is conditioned by ordinary or common values that most people hold. Such a mind is preoccupied with grasping and attaiment. The Dao is not necessarily found in these common values and approaches to life. The things that are of true value in pursuing the Dao do not appear to be of value according to ordinary values. Hence the long list of paradoxical comparisons.

 

Thus, among those that hear of the Dao; the highest are persistent in the striving for true attainment, the mediocre try but often fall back and the lowest never even consider that there might be something beyond their present understanding.

[wandelaar]

Nice to see all those different perspectives. It's much more relaxed now using the Socratic Method and having no position to defend.

[doc benway]

15 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

But are there no specific meanings to the sentences?

 

By specific, do you mean exclusive?

There are lots of specific meanings, hence so many translations and interpretations, but none can be said to be correct while all others are less correct. In a lot of ways, it means what we project onto it. Chinese, as a semantic-phonetic language is less explicit than the alphabetic languages we are conditioned to in the West.

 

[wandelaar]

11 minutes ago, steve said:

By specific, do you mean exclusive?

There are lots of specific meanings, hence so many translations and interpretations, but none can be said to be correct while all others are less correct. In a lot of ways, it means what we project onto it. Chinese, as a semantic-phonetic language is less explicit than the alphabetic languages we are conditioned to in the West.

 

That's not what I mean. I already have some idea of the general meaning of the chapter, and that partially corresponds to the posts of others here. But I like to read more about what the individual paradoxes are trying to say. 

Edited May 6, 2018 by wandelaar

[cheya]

You may have to immerse yourself in some good TTC commentaries for that...Prof. Ellen Chen's is very good... she brings in the history, the meaning of the words closer to the time they were written...

 

It's inexpensive used on Amazon now...
https://www.amazon.com/Tao-Te-Ching-Translation-Commentary/dp/1557782385/ref=sr_1_1_twi_pap_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1525637993&sr=1-1&keywords=Ellen+Chen+Tao+Te+Ching

or Kindle, if you do that...

Others here may chime in with their favorite commentaries...

 

[wandelaar]

@ cheya

 

Thank you! But I recently counted that I already have 9 books with a translation and commentary of the Tao Te Ching. So I have decided that it's time to see what I can do with it.

[cheya]

Yes, developing an understanding of the TTC that you can actually apply to your life is definitely a challenge.   

[Michael Sternbach]

The average individual will evaluate things by how good, beautiful, efficient etc. they seem to be, but the sage understands that something that is too perfect is essentially unbalanced and can only deteriorate. He (or she) will therefore allow for some darkness to remain in the brightness (thus dimming the latter), and other kinds of imperfections... Making things balanced and last.

[wandelaar]

I have looked up some other translations of chapter 41, and it makes quite a difference whether you translate tao by 'path' or by 'Tao'. How to deal with that?

Edited May 7, 2018 by wandelaar