Paradoxes in Chapter 41

[blue eyed snake]

9 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

The average individual will evaluate things by how good, beautiful, efficient etc. they seem to be, but the sage understands that something that is too perfect is essentially unbalanced and can only deteriorate. He (or she) will therefore allow for some darkness to remain in the brightness (thus dimming the latter), and other kinds of imperfections... Making things balanced and last.

 

 

Micheal has exlained better then I can what i meant by:

 

15 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

every thing carries the seed of the opposite .

like the dots in the  yin yang symbol

 

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I have looked up some other translations of chapter 41, and it makes quite a difference whether you translate tao by 'path' or by 'Tao'. How to deal with that?

 

That's an interesting point.

When you do not translate it by "path" or "way," what does Tao mean to you?

I think that's a good place to start.

[wandelaar]

6 minutes ago, steve said:

When you do not translate it by "path" or "way," what does Tao mean to you?

 

Without a translation it has no (clear) meaning to me. I can't read the original Chinese text. 

[Starjumper]

Here's the nei kung view: picking and choosing the parts that speak directly to nei kung, the currently almost unknown real nei kung being the Taoist spiritual path.  It helps to explain why the true path of cultivation is rejected by most, which is stated in the part before this part.  The parts about virtue are speaking to the results of the path, which is virtue, and how it is viewed by the multitudes.

 

Hence it is said:
The bright path seems dim;
Going forward seems like retreat;
The easy way seems hard;
The highest Virtue seems empty;
Great purity seems sullied;
A wealth of Virtue seems inadequate;
The strength of Virtue seems frail;
Real Virtue seems unreal;
The perfect square has no corners;
Great talents ripen late;
The highest notes are hard to hear;
The greatest form has no shape.
The Tao is hidden and without name.
The Tao alone nourishes and brings everything to fulfillment.

 

Comments:

 

The bright path seems dim - People with some experience in wimpy chi kung tend to think that the beginning exercises of nei kung are relatively foolish and that they have seen much better, because they can't see how it fits together.  This then causes the weenies to reject it and to drop out and keeps them from bothering the teacher for too long.

 

Going forward seems like retreat - In the beginning and for a long time the going forward can lead to one experiencing more energy but emotionally it can be difficult as the practitioner begins to see more and more of their own darkness.  This also makes the weenies reject it and drop out.  Another thing that happens is that the way makes a person's sick energy 'come out' and they feel it, which can make them feel pretty bad, commonly known as a healing crisis.  If a person has a lot of sick energy then it can kill them when it comes out - a real retreat ... of course they normally drop out first.

 

The easy way seems hard - In the long run the way of nei kung is easy, like floating in energy, but for a lot of its development the exercises seem hard physically and hard emotionally.  Part of this is because people who are immature do not like to move very slowly.  The moving through strenuous positions is hard physically.  It also reiterates the line above about being hard emotionally.

 

Great talents ripen late - A person will acquire more and more chi power and special abilities little by little, but it isn't till after some decades of practice that the really amazing things are experienced.  The weenies who do it because they want to push people with energy, (which can be achieved in rather short term for some, when working with compliant friends) either get disillusioned by the stupidity of their goals or trapped in a detour and make no further progress.  A great and intelligent way of weeding out those who have wrong attitude.

 

The greatest form has no shape - True nei kung has what is called the ten thousand techniques.  The TTC also says that in order to arrive at the formless one must first study the forms, another reference to real nei kung.  Once a person learns the ten thousand ways to move then they can do whatever techniques they wish that makes them feel the best at that moment, which is sometimes called spontaneous chi kung (NOT flopping around on the floor like spastics, as is taught by Mad Max, the fake who is an incarnation of a powerful demon), or that which furthers whatever energy goals they may have at the moment.  This is termed arriving at the formless in the system of exercises, and it leads one to arriving at the formless with their emotions and mind as well.

 

I feel the need to keep repeating 'real' nei kung, because what most people are calling nei kung these days is a sad little joke.

 

Therefore they don't seem like paradoxes to me, your mileage may vary.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Starjumper

[blue eyed snake]

sometimes I think, that what we get of whatever text, can never be more then a reflection of ourselves.

When I read something like this, I get a very different association then say ten years ago.

 

But for everybody there's wisdom to be found in these lines. For us humans to play with and ponder.

[wandelaar]

@ Starjumper

 

I appreciate your description of a nei gong interpretation of the Tao Te Ching.

 

I don't plan to follow that road myself, except for some very simple forms of chi gong for health and as moving meditation. Probably worse than terrible from your point of view.  But nevertheless a lot of your interpretation applies to the process of investigating one's own mind and thought processes and clearing away the useless rubbish while keeping what proves of value.

[dawei]

18 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

So what is your interpretation of: "The bright path seems dim"?

 

To try and dissect each line as a very specific meaning may miss the overall point, each one is saying the same thing... but:

 

Our minds see the dim path, while Dao is the bright path. 

 

Now, some of this is subconscious and we don't realize the drag occurring but it filters into our experience.

 

So to tie back to the quote I gave, I could rewrite it as: 

 

I see so clear and bright the path... yet others seem a world bothersome [dim] path.

 

 

In each line, compare how the mind views things vs how Dao might. 

 

I don't imply to mean Dao is a thing but just as an exercise. 

[Jeff]

In my view, the chapter is more about how things look very different from the view of the normal person as compared with to a "sage" or more advanced spiritual practioner.

 

The wise student hears of the Tao and practises it diligently.
The average student hears of the Tao and gives it thought now and again.
The foolish student hears of the Tao and laughs aloud.
If there were no laughter, the Tao would not be what it is.

 

There is sort of a logical step-down from a wise student to a more average "foolish" student who doesn't really get it.  Then the next part of the chapter is all about examples for an average person to help explain that it is not really what you would think...

 

The bright path seems dim; Going forward seems like retreat;

- Moving forward on the path is more like letting go than accomplishing something (like retreat)

The easy way seems hard; The highest Virtue seems empty;

- Seems hard because one must simply "reside" and not do something. And that is very quiet and empty mind.

Great purity seems sullied; A wealth of Virtue seems inadequate;

- It seems sullied because it never fights back, more like water. Virtue is not material, and many want more stuff.

The strength of Virtue seems frail; Real Virtue seems unreal;

- Being like water seems weak, but can break down the hardest rock.

The perfect square has no corners; Great talents ripen late;

- The mind is not bounded and there are no edges (or corners) to it. The powers (or great talents) come when the mind is not bounded.

The highest notes are hard to hear; The greatest form has no shape.

- The highest notes come from the realization of energy structures, they are like a high pitched tone in the mind. And these tones mean that your mind is starting to break down form into underlying energy.

The Tao is hidden and without name. The Tao alone nourishes and brings everything to fulfillment.

- The Tao is beyond mind. The Tao is the basis for all.

 

 

[wandelaar]

Not very much to add to the interpretation of Jeff.

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

Without a translation it has no (clear) meaning to me. I can't read the original Chinese text. 

 

That will change with time. While most translate 道 as way or path, I think we each develop a very personal idea of what it means.

 

Jeff's perspectives here are excellent and appreciated.

I will add some of my own, not to correct but rather to flesh out these ideas from an additional perspective.

 

37 minutes ago, Jeff said:

In my view, the chapter is more about how things look very different from the view of the normal person as compared with to a "sage" or more advanced spiritual practioner.

 

The wise student hears of the Tao and practises it diligently.
The average student hears of the Tao and gives it thought now and again.
The foolish student hears of the Tao and laughs aloud.
If there were no laughter, the Tao would not be what it is.

 

There is sort of a logical step-down from a wise student to a more average "foolish" student who doesn't really get it.  Then the next part of the chapter is all about examples for an average person to help explain that it is not really what you would think...

 

The bright path seems dim; Going forward seems like retreat;

- Moving forward on the path is more like letting go than accomplishing something (like retreat)

I would add that when we don't understand the path (this can refer to teachings, readings, practices, a particular point of view), it can seem ridiculous, incorrect, nonsensical, boring (eg refer to the current thread on the Diamond Sutra). Nevertheless, it is full of potential illumination and wisdom if we are patient enough and have the good fortune to understand at some point. 

 

Sometimes, we can find ourselves in a place where it feels like we are moving backward. This is very common in meditative practices and internal martial practices. What is really happening is that we are beginning to see weaknesses that we were previously not even aware of. This is another aspect of "going forward seems like retreat."

 

37 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The easy way seems hard; The highest Virtue seems empty;

- Seems hard because one must simply "reside" and not do something. And that is very quiet and empty mind.

Sometimes the simplest things are the most challenging, especially when we need to persist over time.

For me the "highest Virtue" relates to non-interference - wu wei. That silence and emptiness seem worthless but, like in so many quotes from the Daoist masters, what seems worthless is often of great value.

 

37 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Great purity seems sullied; A wealth of Virtue seems inadequate;

- It seems sullied because it never fights back, more like water. Virtue is not material, and many want more stuff.

Another way to look at this is that the things that seem to obscure true wisdom are not an obscuration at all once we have a deeper glimpse. What seems like impurity is just a natural manifestation of the underlying purity - like thoughts to a meditator. At first they are an obstacle, something to get rid of. And they seem to get worse over a time as our awareness becomes deeper and more sensitive. With practice, they are allowed to come and go and do not disturb our ability to remain empty and quiet. At that point they are simply ornaments. 

 

37 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The strength of Virtue seems frail; Real Virtue seems unreal;

- Being like water seems weak, but can break down the hardest rock.

This makes me think of vulnerability. On the spiritual path, it is necessary to confront our weaknesses, vulnerability, and embracing that is of enormous value. "Real Virtue seems unreal" can refer to the amazing ease with which the Sage can move through life without obvious worry, trouble, or baggage.

 

37 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The perfect square has no corners; Great talents ripen late;

- The mind is not bounded and there are no edges (or corners) to it. The powers (or great talents) come when the mind is not bounded.

This has always been a tricky passage. I think Jeff's take is insightful.

I've seen geometric explanations as well, that "prove" that a square can have no corners when mapped to a different surface or dimensional space. One interpretation is that things are not always as they appear, be open to seeing a different truth rather than being fixed in our thinking. Which brings us back to Jeff's explanation in a way. "Great talents ripen late" suggests the need for patience and persistence. We tend to be hurried and impatient on the path.

 

37 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The highest notes are hard to hear; The greatest form has no shape.

- The highest notes come from the realization of energy structures, they are like a high pitched tone in the mind. And these tones mean that your mind is starting to break down form into underlying energy.

Another way to look at this is that there are things we cannot perceive but are nevertheless there. Keeping an open mind allows us to experience more and more subtle levels of ourselves and our surroundings. "The greatest form has no shape" can refer to energetic foundations and can also refer to the absolute foundation of all - emptiness/space, the boundlessness mentioned earlier.

 

37 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The Tao is hidden and without name. The Tao alone nourishes and brings everything to fulfillment.

- The Tao is beyond mind. The Tao is the basis for all.

 

 

 

 

[wandelaar]

43 minutes ago, steve said:

That will change with time. While most translate 道 as way or path, I think we each develop a very personal idea of what it means.

 

The problem is not that I have no idea what "tao" (how did you post that character?) might mean, but that I am unsure which ones of its many meanings I am to apply to get at the probable meaning or meanings of the original text. As I am not a sinologist and don't even read Chinese I have to depend on translators and commentators for helping me read the Tao Te Ching. And when the translators and commentators disagree among themselves I have a problem....

Edited May 7, 2018 by wandelaar

[Lost in Translation]

4 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

And when they disagree among themselves I have a problem....

 

I think this is a basic characteristic of Tao. Since it's an experiential process, words can't ever capture it. Thus the problem.

 

You would never expect love from Mathematics.

You would never expect justice from History.

You would never expect equity from Dance.

Why do you expect logic from Tao?

[wandelaar]

As the world exhibits regularities I also expect Tao to exhibit (or to stay on the safe side: to bring forth) regularities. And in fact the Tao Te Ching frequently points at such regularities.

 

I further think that the possibilities of logical thought are greatly underestimated. That's one of the points where I don't agree with Lao tse and Chuang tse.

[Lost in Translation]

9 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

I further think that the possibilities of logical thought are greatly underestimated.

 

I agree. Some may claim otherwise, but keep in mind the giants of Taoism are, themselves, just men. They wrote what they wrote as men. They are not gods. They claim no divinity. I think it best to allow some flexibility when reading their writings. In the end we must all figure this (life, Tao, whatever) out on our own. There are sign posts from other people's path. These sign posts may lead us in the correct direction, but they may also lead us astray. In matters like these I treat all with a healthy degree of suspicion.

[Starjumper]

7 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I don't plan to follow that road myself, except for some very simple forms of chi gong for health and as moving meditation. Probably worse than terrible from your point of view. 

 

No I don't think it's terrible at all.  Some of what I call wimpy chi kung is fine for improving health and can make an excellent moving meditation.  Just a very few people have either the desire or the dedication to follow the long path even if they could find it, and that is fine.  What is terrible are those people who misrepresent nei kung and mislead people and there are several reasons why that is terrible.  I don't think this is the place to discuss that.

 

Then additionally some people who start out with wimpy chi kung just might be the ones that decide to take the long road to immortality.

 

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

The problem is not that I have no idea what "tao" (how did you post that character?) might mean, but that I am unsure which ones of its many meanings I am to apply to get at the probable meaning or meanings of the original text. As I am not a sinologist and don't even read Chinese I have to depend on translators and commentators for helping me read the Tao Te Ching. And when the translators and commentators disagree among themselves I have a problem....

 

There is a lot of ambiguity inherent in the language. I think we each get a sense of what Dao is pointing to over time and you’re right, there can be some nuance and variability depending on context. As long as we continue to study and/or practice I think it continues to change and develop.

 

If you really enjoy the DDJ, you may want to begin to study the language a bit. I did that to be able to read and write martial arts stuff for my shifu. Just take a line, look up each character, and see what happens. The DDJ is perfect for that sort of thing as the chapters are very short. I enjoy that although I mostly do it now with Tibetan. I got a lot out of it in terms of understanding things. enter after working through some translations.

 

I simply copy and pasted the character. You can also use a virtual Chinese keyboard for Mac or PC or a program like NJStar.

[wandelaar]

道

I see - that's the way to do it!

Edited May 8, 2018 by wandelaar

[wandelaar]

13 hours ago, steve said:

If you really enjoy the DDJ, you may want to begin to study the language a bit. I did that to be able to read and write martial arts stuff for my shifu. Just take a line, look up each character, and see what happens. The DDJ is perfect for that sort of thing as the chapters are very short. I enjoy that although I mostly do it now with Tibetan. I got a lot out of it in terms of understanding things. enter after working through some translations.

 

Maybe I will eventually...