How tai chi works for self healing.

[Starjumper]

Today a tai chi student asked me how tai chi works as a healing modality because someone asked her.  Well I wasn't able to come up with a good solid answer.  I muttered some stuff about how it's good exercise that involves your mind and how it balances your energy but I wasn't satisfied with my answer.

 

I have read about some of the near miraculous healings that people have experienced via practicing tai chi, so I'm a 'believer', but when it comes to spouting out healing benefits of internal arts I do much better blabbing about chi kung.

 

So what I'm looking for here is some good solid reasons as to the ways that tai chi is good for self healing that will appeal to a Western scientific mind.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Starjumper

[dwai]

Taijiquan is a specific form of qigong. So same rules apply imho

[wandelaar]

4 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

So what I'm looking for here is some good solid reasons as to the ways that tai chi is good for self healing that will appeal to a Western scientific mind.

 

I haven't researched the subject myself, but one important point if you want to "appeal to a Western scientific mind" is that anecdotal evidence isn't enough. Basically one has to follow a large group of people who do Tai Chi and as a comparison a large group of people that do not do Tai Chi. And further the two groups are to be similar in other respects. There are lots of other things that have to be taken into account, but the basic thing is making the comparison of the effects of doing or not doing Tai Chi by following how the two groups of people are doing. There are also more complicated versions where one tries to filter out the placebo effect that is to be expected of whatever exercises that looks good. It is very hard to design a good experiment without a solid scientific and statistical background, because the there are multiple possibilities of misinterpreting results.

 

So, I think you would do best to look for research that is already done. And preferably multiple studies because the results of one or two studies scientifically speaking don't mean much, it's the reproducible results that are considered as answers one can count on. 

[Starjumper]

That's part of it.  I'm well aware of the scientific method but I didn't want to get THAT scientific or need that kind of proof, theory is good enough if it's reasonable.  I know there's a lot of good theory and I've read/heard about some of it, I just couldn't recall that much nor bring it out in a cohesive manner.

[Starjumper]

17 minutes ago, dwai said:

Taijiquan is a specific form of qigong. So same rules apply imho

 

Yes it is, but there are many types of chi kung, from simple stretching or strengthening to others that are almost all energy work via movement.  For example, tai chi has little or no stretching and the energy work is mild.

[dwai]

48 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Yes it is, but there are many types of chi kung, from simple stretching or strengthening to others that are almost all energy work via movement.  For example, tai chi has little or no stretching and the energy work is mild.

Not the way I practice Taiji. The Energy work is huge, albeit the stretching is very subtle. 

 

I discovered this interview recently and it talks about how Taijiquan is really meant to be practiced -- https://taiji-forum.com/tai-chi-taiji/tai-chi-interviews/shi-ming/

In it, the way Taiji for health works is explained (small aspect). 

[thelerner]

Wish Taomeow was around.  She had great expertise on the subject. 

 

I don't think it has to cure cancer to be considered a worthwhile art.  It teaches flow, balance, extension.. energy movement plus much more if get the right teacher.  Great art, with particular benefits for the elderly but has much for people of all ages to learn. 

 

There are many studies (google it) on Tai Chi's healing affect, a couple are double blind, but as stated above its hard to tease out the placebo affect.  Yet if you hang out with many Tai Chi players its hard not to notice greater flexibility and vitality.   Course the same can be said of yoga and there is survivor bias, ie you only see the healthy ones. 

 

Not that there's no risk to either, but with a good teacher the benefits far outweigh the risks. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by thelerner

[Mudfoot]

Roger Jahnke have written a short essay on how taiji and qigong affect the cirkulation of lymph, that is a good start. Regulating your breath affects your autonomic nervous system, working with your balance system counteracts anxiety, proper alignments helps in the treatment of both anxiety and depression. 

 

Basic WM stuff. Perfekt for the scientifically oriented mind. 😁 

[Rara]

My teacher doesn't oversell it. A traditional Chinese martial art, very good for the leg muscles and stretching in a relaxed environment is all I'm getting haha.

[Gerard]

On 09/05/2018 at 5:33 AM, Starjumper said:

good for self healing that will appeal to a Western scientific mind.

 

I personally wouldn't teach them in the first place.

 

Let's follow the wisdom of the old masters:

 

Bagua ---> Ma Gui

 

Ma Gui had a reputation for being an extremely conservative teacher who demanded the very best of his students. As a busy lumber merchant he did not have to teach professionally and he was therefore able to maintain extremely high standards in training. Fiercely dedicated to the traditional way he had been taught Bagua by Yin Fu and Dong Haichuan, he refused to modify his teachings to make them easier and felt that "anyone who felt the skill was too difficult to learn should not be taught in the first place."

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Gui_(martial_artist)#Rigorous_training_and_a_conservative_approach_to_teaching

 

Buddhism ---> Ajahn Lee, The Skill of Release.

 

Teaching & Learning

 

"People with thick defilements are easier to teach than people with thin defilements. They’ve got a thick shell, so it’s easy to crack open. If their skin is thin, it’s hard to peel. (This stands for people who think they’re already good and so aren’t willing to let go of whatever defilements they still have.)

 

 

~To find a good teacher is hard but to find a good student is even harder!

 

[Gerard]

On 09/05/2018 at 5:33 AM, Starjumper said:

good for self healing that will appeal to a Western scientific mind.

 

I personally wouldn't teach them in the first place.

 

Let's follow the wisdom of the old masters:

 

Bagua ---> Ma Gui

 

Ma Gui had a reputation for being an extremely conservative teacher who demanded the very best of his students. As a busy lumber merchant he did not have to teach professionally and he was therefore able to maintain extremely high standards in training. Fiercely dedicated to the traditional way he had been taught Bagua by Yin Fu and Dong Haichuan, he refused to modify his teachings to make them easier and felt that "anyone who felt the skill was too difficult to learn should not be taught in the first place."

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Gui_(martial_artist)#Rigorous_training_and_a_conservative_approach_to_teaching

 

Buddhism ---> Ajahn Lee, The Skill of Release.

 

Teaching & Learning

 

"People with thick defilements are easier to teach than people with thin defilements. They’ve got a thick shell, so it’s easy to crack open. If their skin is thin, it’s hard to peel. (This stands for people who think they’re already good and so aren’t willing to let go of whatever defilements they still have.)

 

 

~To find a good teacher is hard but to find a good student is even harder!

 

Btw, internal arts and meditation systems water down not because of the teachers but because of the slackening of the students who are always in demand, don't put enough effort and focus too much on form. 

 

TJQ is really an art of very few movements but filled with enormous substance. This won't appeal prospective students but fancy forms with cool movements with coloured names will attract many. It has become an art for the geriatric audience as a result.

 

This TJ is great, looks boring to the students who want pretty instead of internal power and a calm focused mind:

 

 

A good sign of bad TJQ is moving fast. It's a product of the new China, Mao Zedong's era, and IMA turning into some form of Chinese gymnastics devoid of any substance. Pleasing to the eye (and the gathering) only.

 

Wanna heal yourself? Practice like Wang Liping and the rigorous training he underwent with his 3 teachers. That's real TJQ.

 

 

[Starjumper]

On 5/8/2018 at 3:54 PM, GSmaster said:

01

 

I'm baaaaack!

 

OK, it appears that the exalted non human who calls himself master has left us (crying emoticon goes here, this forum needs a crying emoticon); but he can't fool me, I remember what he wrote, YAhahaha.

 

It went something like this:  "Blah blah blah slow movement vs. fast movement blah blah blah."  Well I had already mentioned something along those lines to my student, but not as eloquently as he put it ...  but eloquently enough.

 

Next! -

Edited May 16, 2018 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

On 5/8/2018 at 4:10 PM, dwai said:

On 5/8/2018 at 3:20 PM, Starjumper said:

Yes it is, but there are many types of chi kung, from simple stretching or strengthening to others that are almost all energy work via movement.  For example, tai chi has little or no stretching and the energy work is mild.

Not the way I practice Taiji. The Energy work is huge, albeit the stretching is very subtle.

 

Interesting statement there.  For me it's the opposite concerning the energy work, but really that kind of thing all depend on what kind of tai chi, and more importantly, what kind of chi kung we are doing.  I would say, just guessing here, that it's because the chi kung you're doing doesn't focus that much on energy, and if you are one of those who is quite sensitive to energy then tai chi can feel like strong energy work.  However I would say that tai chi is better for energy balancing, and although it does have the potential to increase chi power that the effect isn't so strong.  Of course I'm comparing it to a chi kung system which creates immense chi feeling and power and that kind of thing appears to be extremely rare and unknown but to a very few.  Well in some ways it might be like extended Zhan Zhuang which can have a strong energy effect, but with slow movement to work with said energy at the same time, plus standing still, and sitting still, so no doubt some here would be familiar with the strong energy work.

 

So the question becomes how does your tai chi accomplish so much energy work, which brings us to the following statement:

 

On 5/8/2018 at 4:10 PM, dwai said:

I discovered this interview recently and it talks about how Taijiquan is really meant to be practiced -- https://taiji-forum.com/tai-chi-taiji/tai-chi-interviews/shi-ming/

In it, the way Taiji for health works is explained (small aspect). 

 

Looks good, is that from your lineage?

 

I opened the link and scanned the article, I didn't want to take the time to read the whole thing but read some parts which seemed to apply to health.  By the way, my Yang style grandmaster could also push people really far before they touched down, and when I asked him about that he said what he focussed on during the push was the location far behind the opponent where he wanted that person to land, which could be similar to the statement in the article where the master says he puts his mind behind the opponent.  One of them having a more 'hidden' version than the other.

 

Getting back to the health aspect, in the article it appears to attribute health more to Zhan Zhuang, and in my book zhan zhuang is a kind of chi kung rather than tai chi.  I agree that Zhan Zhuang can create some strong energy.  So if you are including standing and sitting meditation in your definition of your tai chi then I can understand your first statement.

 

The article also mentions undulation of the back, which is good, but in my experience tai chi has very little of it.  What is your experience with that?

 

Let me know if I missed any other points n that article about health aspects of tai chi.

[Starjumper]

13 hours ago, Gerard said:

Wanna heal yourself? Practice like Wang Liping and the rigorous training he underwent with his 3 teachers. That's real TJQ.

 

Well I do similar I guess but I would never call it tai chi, I guess that's why you had the winky face there?

 

i'll get to the rest of your good post later.

 

I suppose the fact that the weenies are calling chi kung by the name of tai chi would be good for a rant somewhere.  In fact I did just that back before chi kung was heard of when I was teaching at a school for people over fifty.  Eeek, I'm over fifty now meself   I had signed up to teach tai chi but after seeing the shape and abilities of the students I taught them chi kung instead.

[CloudHands]

On 08/05/2018 at 10:20 PM, Starjumper said:

 

Yes it is, but there are many types of chi kung, from simple stretching or strengthening to others that are almost all energy work via movement.  For example, tai chi has little or no stretching and the energy work is mild.

 

I second dwai, there are many ways to practice tai chi chuan. You can emphasize stretching or energy work.

Tai chi chuan alternate opening and closing moves so how to breath become obvious if you go for it. You can also circulate your orbit while doing the form.

I talk for yang tai chi chuan, but it implies only my personal understanding

The moves, with time and proper guidance lead you to firm rooted feet, firm legs, mobile and relaxed waist (the streches of the waist are gentle but never ending in my case, as you're supposed be waist fronting of the direction you're facing) and upper body tonic but soft.

 

Actually it generally balances one's "ordinary life" which often led to the opposite... hard back and no presence down the shoulder blades.

 

At basic level it's about advanced postural training + elemental energy work

 

what is following is worth a reading :

 

THE TEN ESSENTIAL PRINCIPLES OF TAI CHI CHUAN

Grandmaster Yang Chengfu orally provided the Ten Essential Principles for the practice of Tai Chi Chuan to his senior student, Chen Wei Ming, who recorded the instructions in writing. Chen Wei Ming helped his teacher write three books on Tai Chi Chuan. The ten principles are provided in the following material.

 

1. Empty, Lively, Pushing Up and Energetic

‘Pushing up and energetic’ means the posture of the head is upright and straight and the spirit is infused into its apex. You may not use strength. To use strength makes the back of the neck stiff, whereupon the chi and blood cannot circulate freely. You must have an intention which is empty, lively (or free) and natural. Without intention that is empty, lively, pushing up and energetic, you won’t be able to raise your spirit. [Note: This four-character phrase is probably the most difficult one in all of Tai Chi literature to translate. I have chosen to regard each of the four words as filling the function of a predicate or verb-phrase. Another fairly obvious approach would be to take the first two as adverbial and the last two as subject-predicate: “Empty and lively, the apex is energetic.” Many other interpretations are possible. J. Karin]

2. Hold in the Chest and Slightly Round The Back

The phrase ‘hold in the chest’ means the chest is slightly reserved inward, which causes the chi to sink to the dantian. The chest must not be puffed out; if you do so then the chi is blocked in the chest region. The upper body becomes heavy and the lower body light, and it will become easy for the heels to float upward. ‘Slightly round the back’ makes the chi stick to the back. If you are able to hold in the chest then you will naturally be able to slightly round the back. If you can slightly round the back, then you will be able to emit strength from the spine, which others cannot oppose.

3. Relax the Waist

The waist is the commander of the whole body. Only after you are able to relax the waist will the two legs have strength and the lower body is stable. The alternation of empty and full all derive from the turning of the waist. Hence the saying: ‘the wellspring of destiny lies in the tiny interstice of the waist. [In Chinese thought, the waist tends to be regarded as the lower back rather than a circle girdling the middle of the body. Whenever there is a lack of strength in your form, you must look for it in the waist and legs. J. Karin]

4. Separate Empty and Full

In the art of Tai Chi Chuan, separating full and empty is the number one rule. If the whole body sits on the right leg, then the right leg is deemed ‘full’ and the left leg ‘empty.’ If the whole body sits on the left leg, then the left leg is deemed ‘full’ and the right leg ‘empty.’ Only after you are able to distinguish full and empty will turning movements be light, nimble and almost without effort; if you can’t distinguish them, then your steps will be heavy and sluggish. You won’t be able to stand stably, and it will be easy for an opponent to control you.

5. Sink the Shoulders and Drop the Elbows

Sinking the shoulders means the shoulders relax, open, and hang downward. If you can’t relax them downward, the shoulders pop up and then the chi follows and goes upward, causing the whole body to lack strength. Dropping the elbows means the elbows are relaxed downward. If the elbows are elevated then the shoulders are unable to sink. When you use this to push someone they won’t go far. It’s like the cut-off energy of external martial arts. [External martial arts are thought to use energy from parts or sections of the body, as opposed to the ‘whole-body’ energy of Tai Chi. J. Karin]

6. Use Intent Rather than Force

The Tai Chi Classics say, “this is completely a matter of using intent rather than force.” When you practice Tai Chi Chuan, let the entire body relax and extend. Don’t employ even the tiniest amount of coarse strength, which would cause musculoskeletal or circulatory blockage with the result that you restrain or inhibit yourself. Only then will you be able to lightly and nimbly change and transform, circling naturally. Some wonder: if I don’t use force, how can I generate force? The net of acupuncture meridians and channels throughout the body are like the waterways on top of the earth. If the waterways are not blocked, the water circulates; if the meridians are not impeded the chi circulates.

If you move the body about with stiff force, you swamp the meridians. Chi and blood are impeded, movements are not nimble; all someone has to do is begin to guide you and your whole body is moved. If you use intent rather than force, wherever the intent goes, so goes the chi. In this way, because the chi and blood are flowing and circulating every day throughout the entire body and never stagnating, you will get true internal strength after a lot of practice. That’s what the Tai Chi Classics mean by “Only by being extremely soft are you able to achieve extreme hardness.” Somebody who is really adept at Tai Chi has arms, which seem like silk wrapped around iron, immensely heavy. Someone who practices external martial arts, when he is using his force, seems very strong. But when not using force, he is very light and floating. By this we can see that his force is actually external, or superficial strength. The force used by external martial artists is especially easy to lead or deflect; hence it is not of much value.

7. Synchronize Upper and Lower Body

In the Tai Chi Classics ‘‘synchronize upper and lower body” is expressed as: “With its root in the foot, emitting from the leg, governed by the waist, manifesting in the hands and fingers – from feet to legs to waist – complete everything in one impulse.” Literally “one chi.” This could also be rendered as “one breath.” When hands move, the waist moves and legs move, and the gaze moves along with them. Only then can we say the upper and the lower body are synchronized. If one part doesn’t move then it is not coordinated with the rest.

8. Match Up Inner and Outer

What we are practicing in Tai Chi depends on the spirit, hence the saying: “The spirit is the general, the body his troops.” If you can raise your spirit, your movements will naturally be light and nimble, the form nothing more than empty and full, open and closed. When we say ‘open,’ we don’t just mean open the arms or legs; the mental intent must open along with the limbs. When we say ‘close,’ we don’t just mean close the arms or legs; the mental intent must close along with the limbs. If you can combine inner and outer into a single impulse, then they become a seamless whole.

9. Practice Continuously and Without Interruption

Strength in external martial arts is a kind of acquired, brute force, so it has a beginning and an end, times when it continues and times when it is cut off, such that when the old force is used up and new force hasn’t yet arisen. There is a moment when it is extremely easy for the person to be constrained by an opponent. In Tai Chi, we use intent rather than force, and from beginning to end, smoothly and ceaselessly, complete a cycle and return to the beginning, circulating endlessly. That is what the Tai Chi Classics mean by “Like the Yangtze or Yellow River, endlessly flowing.” And again: “Moving strength is like unreeling silk threads.” These both refer to unifying into a single impulse.

10. Seek Quiescence within Movement

External martial artists prize leaping and stomping, and they do this until breath (chi) and strength are exhausted, so that after practicing they are all out of breath. In Tai Chi Chuan we use quiescence to overcome movement, and even in movement, still have quiescence. So when you practice the form, the slower the better! When you do it slowly your breath becomes deep and long, the chi sinks to the dantian, and naturally there is no harmful constriction or enlargement of the blood vessels. If the student tries carefully they may be able to comprehend the meaning behind these words.

Transmitted Orally by Grandmaster Yang Chengfu

Recorded by Chen Weiming


Translated by Jerry Karin

 

source : http://yangfamilytaichi.com/articles/the-ten-essentials-of-tai-chi-chuan/

 

[dwai]

8 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

Interesting statement there.  For me it's the opposite concerning the energy work, but really that kind of thing all depend on what kind of tai chi, and more importantly, what kind of chi kung we are doing.  I would say, just guessing here, that it's because the chi kung you're doing doesn't focus that much on energy, and if you are one of those who is quite sensitive to energy then tai chi can feel like strong energy work.  However I would say that tai chi is better for energy balancing, and although it does have the potential to increase chi power that the effect isn't so strong.  Of course I'm comparing it to a chi kung system which creates immense chi feeling and power and that kind of thing appears to be extremely rare and unknown but to a very few.  Well in some ways it might be like extended Zhan Zhuang which can have a strong energy effect, but with slow movement to work with said energy at the same time, plus standing still, and sitting still, so no doubt some here would be familiar with the strong energy work.

Mostly what you wrote about taiji is what we consider “Park taiji”. Dance.

 

the way I practice (been taught) is single form practice (dan tsou iinm). It is zhang zhuang, qigong/neigong rolled into one.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

So the question becomes how does your tai chi accomplish so much energy work, which brings us to the following statement:

 

 

Looks good, is that from your lineage?

He’s from the yang family, but my master and our grandmaster met him in person too. Our style pretty much does similar things.

8 hours ago, Starjumper said:

I opened the link and scanned the article, I didn't want to take the time to read the whole thing but read some parts which seemed to apply to health.  By the way, my Yang style grandmaster could also push people really far before they touched down, and when I asked him about that he said what he focussed on during the push was the location far behind the opponent where he wanted that person to land, which could be similar to the statement in the article where the master says he puts his mind behind the opponent.  One of them having a more 'hidden' version than the other.

 

Getting back to the health aspect, in the article it appears to attribute health more to Zhan Zhuang, and in my book zhan zhuang is a kind of chi kung rather than tai chi.  I agree that Zhan Zhuang can create some strong energy.  So if you are including standing and sitting meditation in your definition of your tai chi then I can understand your first statement.

 

The article also mentions undulation of the back, which is good, but in my experience tai chi has very little of it.  What is your experience with that?

It is a powerful healing system. It works on the body and mind. Deep cathartic releases etc...

8 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

Let me know if I missed any other points n that article about health aspects of tai chi.

taiji is a lifestyle thing imho. Little by little rewiring your mind, body, personality...cultivate Ziran. It’s not a short term fix modality, it is really life altering.

 

Of course a good taiji person can do healing, pulling out junk, clearing the channels, putting good stuff in.  

[Rocky Lionmouth]

On 2018-05-12 at 1:37 AM, dwai said:

Little by little rewiring your mind, body, personality...cultivate Ziran. It’s not a short term fix modality, it is really life altering.

 

Of course a good taiji person can do healing, pulling out junk, clearing the channels, putting good stuff in.  

 

First paragraph is the best selling point i can see. If it doesn’t stimulate a potential student then this student has a need to be convinced and feel a pretty immediate gratification. Perhaps Xing Yi could open their gates.

 

Second paragraph is a little difficult, because a lot of tai ji people claim that but their skill is often either far too mentalized or underdeveloped vis a vis actually feeling and prepping what might ail someone.

 

I was reading through and i’d be sold on tai ji on whats been said, but thats choir-preaching tbh, i’m too easily swayed on the matter

 

But ah @dwai really hit it home, here go my supporting sales pitch: 

there is a ton of stuff to discover and develop within our bodies (including mind, because lets just let Descartes be in his grave poor sod) and it’s a great set of tools to learn.

 

If they are word-eaters: Proprioception, control and relaxation of core musculature, learning to go easy on the main injury points of both blue collar and white collar carrers.

 

However a good sales pitch needs an honest real-talk aspect:

Like planking and push ups it’s not for everyone and you will be frustrated and perhaps disillusioned after a while, maybe you’ll never grow to really passionately like it, but it will give you benefits and you will discover many things. It’s not going to be like saying and doing a few magic things, it might even lead you to and help you deal with depression and challenging times!

Just make sure you understand it as a life-skill building framework, there is a lot to gain if you are prepared to invest blood sweat and tears into it.

 

Edit

i forgot whats sold more than a few people i’ve met who were on the fence: it’s a good way to put savings into your ”retirement fund” as in, do it right and your body will most likely not be as stiff, uncooperative and decrepit in your late years.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Rocky Lionmouth