doc benway Posted May 12, 2018 11 minutes ago, Daemon said: Why do you jump to the conclusion that there's animosity? ☮️ It just sort of felt that way Peace 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daemon Posted May 12, 2018 (edited) So did it feel as though there was animosity to you personally or to something else? ☮️ Edited May 12, 2018 by Daemon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daemon Posted May 12, 2018 A teacher is like a needle and his pupils are like a thread. If a teacher is wrong, his pupils are bound to be wrong. The thread follows wherever the needle guides. - Anonymous - ☮️ 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phil Posted May 12, 2018 Great thread responsibility / response ability.. 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted May 12, 2018 what a gift, these exchanges what a treasure, this place where we meet and exchange each to their own and yet, all together kinda like... 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liminal_luke Posted May 12, 2018 23 hours ago, silent thunder said: Thanks for the topic steve. Recently, in January, I crossed over another level of understanding on this topic. Lying in hospital, hovering on the line between alive and crossing over for several days as my blood went septic from the posioning due to the ruptures in my colon... I had the full experience of my own responsibility for all of it. Every bit of it. It was beyond just mere mental understanding... I experienced my responsibility in my bones, in my very blood. It was one of the single most beautiful, bouyant and empowering moments I've ever experienced. Empowering as well... because the moment the cascade of understanding really bloomed in my awareness... the palpable sense that I had put myself there and thus, could also pull myself where I was drawn next... to health, or to the other side... I was no longer a helpless, poor me, streaming about in the river of fate. When I claimed complete responsibility for being there, for the experience and the results... gratitude such as I have never known, opened up within and without... saturating me. For a long while, I had been growing in the experience that just because I experience pain and horror and loss, does not mean I am suffering. Now it's just the way it is. It's as clear and natural as the beard on my face. My wife is currently in and out of hospital. They have no clue the causes, or the cure. She's hovered near death as well and I look at my 12 year old son, our home with three cats and all the things reflecting our 29 years together and I accept all of it. Yes, she is in pain. Yes this digs deep into my personality. But I am not suffering. I am present. I am here for her, offering healing, offering presence, just... being. Connected and loving. Bouyant and clear. Fully sensing and accepting my responsibility in all of it. It's remarkably freeing. So bouyant. Hard to describe with words if you're not in it. I understand when others even get upset hearing such things... i used to as well. For me, a big part of the beauty of Dao Bums is that I`m exposed to perspectives like the above, and recognizing that I too could come to see the world like this. LL 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted May 12, 2018 23 minutes ago, Daemon said: A teacher is like a needle and his pupils are like a thread. If a teacher is wrong, his pupils are bound to be wrong. The thread follows wherever the needle guides. - Anonymous - ☮️ Nice thing in this case that Steve Is a very good leader to follow. 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted May 12, 2018 23 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Well, this is a challenging topic. It probably defies purely intellectual understanding. For most of us, taking baby steps will be great. To clarify, this teaching, this concept, is still paradoxical when I consider it by intellect... this can't be reasoned out in the ignorance of separate self identification. But experientially, in beingness... I am living it... now. fully, with no contradiction. With grace, bouyancy and a palpable sense of continual unfolding. It can be experienced, but not understood. This responsibility is something I am being in this moment, not something my mind process can understand. It's not logical. And I don't expect it to adhere to logic, because the experience of it, is beyond words, concept and the entire potential of mental conceptual/logical progressive mind story thinking. The experience of this responisibility, is the beingness of it. Not the thinking. It manifests and is experienced foundationally under and beyond the limited, codified, conditioned, evaluating, judging and projecting conceptual mind. It cannot be reasoned through with logic and mind stories, as these are deeply codified and imbedded in the vibratory forms of story, sense of self and duality perception. This teaching, or concept is so deeply tied to the nature of foundational relational ignorance that it occupies an energetic vibration beneath and above mental awareness in most situations... (hence as steve and I alluded to, many times this is often triggered by experiences of deep trauma and horror). It's like how I imagine that most fish have no concept that there is something we call water... unless they have an experience of being drawn up out of water... It's so foundational, that it lies beneath conscious awareness. This responsibility steve addresses that i have tried to convey my sense of in words, is paradoxical on the level of mind, even to me... yet my experience of this responsibility is a beingness... that I am fully, living now... no understanding required. The Sage is in the world, but not of it. We are all one. There is no we. I am responsible. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CloudHands Posted May 12, 2018 I differentiate two things : helpful and true. Thoughts can be used, everyone do it voluntary or not. You can accept an idea as an inner-truth because it helps you making progress or helps you dealing with reality. For the idea to be useful you have to take it as a truth, not a personal inner truth. Just a truth. You also have to be self-coherent with that "truth". So saying I'm responsible of everything I experience, if a truth, applies to everyone. From the crackhead mother's baby to the (let's say) mayor's son... To accept this you have to bring up the karmic rule (justifying unfairness of destinies) and you found out the core of a religion bringing peace to some and acceptation/submission (and there is peace in that too) for others. 8 years ago I discussed the idea of fairness with a spirituality oriented friend of mine. He said "la vie est juste " juste meaning fair as well as tuned. I disagreed but... what we could agree - and my understanding has not changed since - with life is unfair but life rings true. Responsibility relates to means. Means relate to liberty (and power). Liberty relates to a state of mind. A state of mind is "how you handle what you have experienced". So you got a trigger ! In a way considering yourself responsible for everything you experience makes you freer, for real. Is it true ? My answer is no. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daemon Posted May 12, 2018 @phil Indeed. Developing sufficient emotional maturity to be able to respond without the need to be led by someone else is where freedom is found. That's real responsibility. People who are free have no need of leaders (or of followers), as @rex pointed out on another thread. ☮️ 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted May 12, 2018 7 hours ago, Daemon said: Do you have some sort of problem with my contribution @steve?' No problem, it just felt like you were turning the discussion ad hominem. Perhaps I mis-interpreted, it may be my own projection. 7 hours ago, Daemon said: Is there some sort of issue with your workmates because they reacted normally? Issue? No Feeling? Yes, compassion and concern. Two of them were extremely upset - turmoil in the office, conflict between several partners, two vented to me several times. It was painful to watch. And over a few little trinkets and keepsakes... 7 hours ago, Daemon said: Are you struggling with being questioned about your opening assertions about superiority and inferiority? ☮️ No, as has happened frequently regarding this topic, you are applying a practical instruction as a ranking or judgement of the general public. I was responding to a question about application in real life. Superior, middling, and inferior are meant to represent where we are on our own path, not so much comparing ourselves to others. We can never really know where others are, nor does it do much for us, we need to focus on our own progress. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted May 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Daemon said: @phil Indeed. Developing sufficient emotional maturity to be able to respond without the need to be led by someone else is where freedom is found. That's real responsibility. People who are free have no need of leaders (or of followers), as @rex pointed out on another thread. ☮️ Very true statements. Equally true for me that free people can still learn and grow through the guidance and example of others. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daemon Posted May 12, 2018 7 hours ago, Daemon said: So, @steve is superior because, unlike his workmates, he didn't react normally by getting upset about the fact that someone had thrown his personal possessions in the bin? ☮️ So something about this felt like an ad hominem to you? What was it that specifically triggered that feeling for you? ☮️ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted May 12, 2018 52 minutes ago, Daemon said: So something about this felt like an ad hominem to you? What was it that specifically triggered that feeling for you? ☮️ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daemon Posted May 12, 2018 Is there nothing in available within Yungdrung Bön practices that enables you to access the answer to fundamental questions that you may have about your own feelings? ☮️ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daemon Posted May 12, 2018 I'm struck by the sense that it might have been better to ask why don't you use the practice that can be found within the Yungdrung Bön teachings that enables you to access the answer to fundamental questions that you may have about your own feelings (if you tweak it slightly)? ☮️ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manitou Posted May 12, 2018 8 hours ago, silent thunder said: It can be experienced, but not understood. This responsibility is something I am being in this moment, not something my mind process can understand. The Dao that can be spoken of is not the Dao. Liminal Luke, I'm with you. I've never read anything on the Bums so real as the words of Silent Thunder on this thread. I feel horrible because I've been gone from the forum much and involved in my own life changes. I had no idea that Silent Thunder was having such a close call and life change of his own. But what an incredible flower has bloomed. It is brilliant, it dazzles me. Silent Thunder, you have been a good friend to me during my horrible time - and I just had no idea of your problems. I feel like apologizing, but I know that your spirit needs no apology. It just knows. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted May 13, 2018 Ive been thinking about Steves point, while its confusing , on first exposure, I dont see what it has to do with bolstering ego, Steve keeps his cool, I like that, it IS superior to do it , and it lets me ask about what I dont get. Viewing how we are impacted differently, could be ... significant. I got caught in some traffic, and it made a difference not to expect baseline to be good traffic , .. if that applies. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted May 13, 2018 For a month or so I was very much 'in tune' and in the right place at the right time saying and doing exactly what was needed in relation to the people around me, but this state passed when certain specific circumstances changed. This was a time when I might have accepted that I really was responsible for everything, but I was also intuitively acting in the best interests of everyone at the time, including myself. The part missing for me in following the absolute responsibility theory without it being based on personal inner attainment is the intuitive ability to act in the best interests of everyone and myself. It's blind responsibility. I want to be led to the correct action, which happens with a strong connection to the subconscious/intuition, instead of just honing my ability to accept circumstances that I can't understand or control, and trusting that there is a reason, or conjuring a reason up. Say a lift is about to fail (or aeroplane, whatever), and without a strong connection to my subconscious intuition I could obliviously get on board and die with the other oblivious passengers, or I could find it impossible to get on that lift or plane, and recognise that I was fully responsible for not dying in that moment. In my perspective it is the intuition/subconscious connection that needs to be strengthened, not the blind ability to accept unconscious choices. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manitou Posted May 13, 2018 46 minutes ago, Bindi said: In my perspective it is the intuition/subconscious connection that needs to be strengthened, not the blind ability to accept unconscious choices. Some might say that the answers are always within ourselves, and it's only a matter of weeding out all the unnecessary opinions and judgments from ourselves that we get down to our true self. Your changing circumstances only temporarily set you back on your heel, time for your true self to recognize and adapt to the changes. Love will always be the deciding factor, regardless of what form love chooses to take. Sometimes it's just kindness. Sometimes it's just knowing that the other person is not going to change and to adapt ourselves accordingly. Sometimes it's not saying the first thing that comes to mind. Love takes many forms. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CloudHands Posted May 13, 2018 You are saying that : we are responsible... for our reaction or for the events themselves we go through ? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manitou Posted May 13, 2018 (edited) I think both. I think the One Life that we all are, we are all of the same essence. All seemingly material objects, including us, are really the One Space. Space with Intent. I think that space is the other side of the coin of time, and that somehow all this is playing out in the bat of an eye, only it seems like it's happening one thing after the other. I think that we, communally as the One Life, are creating the disturbances that are occurring on the face of the earth. I think that we, communally, are The Creator; and as such every rock,, tree, situation, person are all of the same essence. And it is all working in concert, even if we can't see the blueprint. I think that I am You. The only thing that separates us is the lens of our upbringing, the ideas of our parents, our teachers, our society's customs. But underlying the strainer of experience is the One Essence. The Dao, or God, or whatever one is conditioned to call The Intelligence. But Intelligence there is. I think we are the universe experiencing itself. I think that what is seemingly good often turns into something seemingly bad, and vice versa. This is why judgments are useless. I think this is a network of consciousness- the pupils of your eyes recognize The Essence in the pupils of my eyes - and of dogs, and birds, and all other living things. The web is complete, and the Intelligence within is the same Essence that knows what every manifestation needs for completion, and that it draws to us the very circumstances that challenge us and change us to conform to its Intent. I think the Intent is perfection and love, but it seems like the world is exactly the opposite right now. But these are necessary evils created for the purposes of developing other traits we need for Essential Expression. I think that what makes up the bulk of an atom is space. The actual 'matter' is so miniscule that there really is no matter at all, just the illusion of matter due to the speed at which the particles spin around the atom. It seems solid, but it's not. With complete breakdown of the nature of matter, I think that the bottom line is that it is Thought. So - to answer your question, yes, I do think we create the situations we encounter, even if it's the death of another person we are experiencing. Somehow, as it is all happening Now, there is a working intelligence at work to achieve its purpose. We don't intentionally create them, but these are subconscious pieces of the puzzle, on both an individual and a world-communal level. The timing is always perfect to achieve its ends. Actually, timing isn't the right choice of words. It's already happened. We're just playing catch-up, because there really is no past or future. I went to a zoo once and there was an eyepiece that you could look through and see how a bat sees. In a bat's world, everything is neon green. The bat is limited in his perceptions. How limited are we in our perceptions? Could there not be other worlds here and now, but only on different sensory frequencies, such as the difference between us and the bat? Could these be the Buddha-lands of the sutras? Edited May 13, 2018 by manitou 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rex Posted May 13, 2018 18 hours ago, Daemon said: People who are free have no need of leaders (or of followers), as @rex pointed out on another thread. ☮️ Nice to get a mention but I’m sure that wasn’t me. Not bring free myself I do seek the guidance of others. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted May 13, 2018 On 5/12/2018 at 8:52 AM, Daemon said: So, @steve is superior because, unlike his workmates, he didn't react normally by getting upset about the fact that someone had thrown his personal possessions in the bin? ☮️ On 5/12/2018 at 8:58 AM, Daemon said: Why do you jump to the conclusion that there's animosity? ☮️ On 5/12/2018 at 9:02 AM, Daemon said: Do you have some sort of problem with my contribution @steve? Is there some sort of issue with your workmates because they reacted normally? Are you struggling with being questioned about your opening assertions about superiority and inferiority? ☮️ On 5/12/2018 at 9:12 AM, Daemon said: So did it feel as though there was animosity to you personally or to something else? ☮️ 17 hours ago, Daemon said: So something about this felt like an ad hominem to you? What was it that specifically triggered that feeling for you? ☮️ 16 hours ago, Daemon said: Is there nothing in available within Yungdrung Bön practices that enables you to access the answer to fundamental questions that you may have about your own feelings? ☮️ 15 hours ago, Daemon said: I'm struck by the sense that it might have been better to ask why don't you use the practice that can be found within the Yungdrung Bön teachings that enables you to access the answer to fundamental questions that you may have about your own feelings (if you tweak it slightly)? ☮️ I guess it wasn't projection after all... There are so many practices in the Yungdrung Bön, far more than I've come into contact with. in the Dzogchen cycles, the one I find the most effective is very simple... Leave it as it is. Peace 3 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted May 13, 2018 14 hours ago, Stosh said: Ive been thinking about Steves point, while its confusing , on first exposure, I dont see what it has to do with bolstering ego, Steve keeps his cool, I like that, it IS superior to do it , and it lets me ask about what I dont get. Viewing how we are impacted differently, could be ... significant. I got caught in some traffic, and it made a difference not to expect baseline to be good traffic , .. if that applies. In a sense, it does the opposite of bolstering the ego. It cuts right through. That's what makes it so painful and shocking in extreme situations. 3 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
