A practitioner's responsibility

[thelerner]

I have a tiny bit of control. 

I won't go fishing off the grand banks, or buy fish from there, not shoot any school kids this week and lastly I can bring an umbrella.  

 

but your right, while there's near infinite craziness if you look for it, yet day to day, the normal and slightly abnormal stuff is largely within my locus of control.  Certainly my reaction to these things are. 

[Stosh]

10 minutes ago, thelerner said:

I have a tiny bit of control. 

I won't go fishing off the grand banks, or buy fish from there, not shoot any school kids this week and lastly I can bring an umbrella.  

 

but your right, while there's near infinite craziness if you look for it, yet day to day, the normal and slightly abnormal stuff is largely within my locus of control.  Certainly my reaction to these things are. 

I'll agree , there is stuff within our control , But there is stuff that is not, too. 

How could you take responsibility for behaviors like over fishing , if you aren't a fisherman? maybe you can blame it on the state of the world , and let the animosity about it dissipate ,, but I don't see how you could include it as your personal responsibility, to take responsibility off the fishermen. 

Are indeed your reactions , I figure you mean the emotional ones, really in your control ? You can approve of despicable things , happily consume disgusting food , and so forth?  I understand some things , like the upset of some rain , can be brushed aside, for me most natural events are like that, and so I like being in nature. But when it comes to people... nope , I'm not so flexible. 

Maybe extending this nature reaction to people would be good for me.     Hmmm food for thought there. 

[Michael Sternbach]

Well, this is a challenging topic. It probably defies purely intellectual understanding. For most of us, taking baby steps will be great.

 

[rex]

I think this perspective on responsibility is for mature practitioners on particular paths. It can be misunderstood, misinterpreted and lead to consternation and alarm for those not following those paths. Unless one doesn’t mind and is open to entertaining challenging perspectives they can be put aside for the time being. 

[Stosh]

1 minute ago, rex said:

I think this perspective on responsibility is for mature practitioners on particular paths. It can be misunderstood, misinterpreted and lead to consternation and alarm for those not following those paths. Unless one doesn’t mind and is open to entertaining challenging perspectives they can be put aside for the time being. 

You're probably right , but what the heck are the challenging parts ? it seems pretty simple actually, other than making it habitual. 

[Miroku]

5 minutes ago, Stosh said:

You're probably right , but what the heck are the challenging parts ? it seems pretty simple actually, other than making it habitual. 

Making it habitual is one of the more challenging parts. Sometimes it is pretty hard to have enough mindfulness to do it. Also the understanding of it really correctly can be pretty challenging by itself for some people. As said before it is not for everyone. Yes it is easy to understand, but many people are not willing to understand it. Some of those who are willing and able to understand are not going to apply it, etc. Also unfortunately some people are emotionally damaged in one way or another and for them it is better to go to a therapy.

[Jeff]

21 hours ago, steve said:

By request, I've created a new topic to discuss this:

 

Steve

A great piece of wisdom from the tradition I follow:

The superior practitioner takes full responsibility for everything that occurs in her life - 100%.

The mediocre practitioner takes partial responsibility.

The inferior practitioner blames everyone but himself.

...

 

 

Very well said. Thank you.

[Michael Sternbach]

2 hours ago, rex said:

I think this perspective on responsibility is for mature practitioners on particular paths. It can be misunderstood, misinterpreted and lead to consternation and alarm for those not following those paths. Unless one doesn’t mind and is open to entertaining challenging perspectives they can be put aside for the time being. 

 

I have actually come across this view in spiritual systems other than Dzogchen. It is not a domain just of the latter: Either it is universal or it is BS. Although it is true that certain traditions highlight particular universal truths above others.

 

Challenging, mind boggling and controversial as the topic may be, I, for one, look forward to an interesting discussion.

[rex]

3 hours ago, Stosh said:

You're probably right , but what the heck are the challenging parts ? it seems pretty simple actually, other than making it habitual. 

Accidents, natural disasters, war, disease, famine, political and economic instability, crime - all have victims. For those not following the specialised paths it is counter intuitive and maybe even monstrous to suggest that the victims are responsible for what befell them.  It does them and the paths a dis-service to promulgate this view to the wrong audience at the wrong place and wrong time. 

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, Stosh said:

You're probably right , but what the heck are the challenging parts ? it seems pretty simple actually, other than making it habitual. 

 

The challenging parts are letting go of different manifestations of ignorance... mistaking who we are at an absolute level with who we are at a relative level: over-identifying with the thoughts, the body, our projections, our emotions, etc... The next challenge is consistency and dedication. Next challenge is integration into life. 

[Michael Sternbach]

6 hours ago, Stosh said:

I'll agree , there is stuff within our control , But there is stuff that is not, too. 

How could you take responsibility for behaviors like over fishing , if you aren't a fisherman? maybe you can blame it on the state of the world , and let the animosity about it dissipate ,, but I don't see how you could include it as your personal responsibility, to take responsibility off the fishermen. 

Are indeed your reactions , I figure you mean the emotional ones, really in your control ? You can approve of despicable things , happily consume disgusting food , and so forth?  I understand some things , like the upset of some rain , can be brushed aside, for me most natural events are like that, and so I like being in nature. But when it comes to people... nope , I'm not so flexible. 

Maybe extending this nature reaction to people would be good for me.     Hmmm food for thought there. 

 

[doc benway]

17 minutes ago, rex said:

Accidents, natural disasters, war, disease, famine, political and economic instability, crime - all have victims. For those not following the specialised paths it is counter intuitive and maybe even monstrous to suggest that the victims are responsible for what befell them.  It does them and the paths a dis-service to promulgate this view to the wrong audience at the wrong place and wrong time. 

 

My apologies

Perhaps I should stop here.

I appreciate your posts.

 

Please remember, I never suggested that victims are responsible. 

This is not advice for counseling of trauma victims.

The teachings suggest that the dedicated yogi take responsibility - there's a difference.

 

That's my audience and I like to think that is why we are here.

Not many other places to discuss this stuff.

Am I out of line?

Edited May 11, 2018 by steve

[doc benway]

6 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Thanks for the topic steve. 

 

Recently, in January, I crossed over another level of understanding on this topic.

 

Lying in hospital, hovering on the line between alive and crossing over for several days as my blood went septic from the posioning due to the ruptures in my colon...  I had the full experience of my own responsibility for all of it.  Every bit of it.  It was beyond just mere mental understanding... I experienced my responsibility in my bones, in my very blood.

 

It was one of the single most beautiful, bouyant and empowering moments I've ever experienced.  Empowering as well... because the moment the cascade of understanding really bloomed in my awareness... the palpable sense that I had put myself there and thus, could also pull myself where I was drawn next... to health, or to the other side...  I was no longer a helpless, poor me, streaming about in the river of fate.

 

When I claimed complete responsibility for being there, for the experience and the results... gratitude such as I have never known, opened up within and without... saturating me. 

 

For a long while, I had been growing in the experience that just because I experience pain and horror and loss, does not mean I am suffering. 

 

Now it's just the way it is.  It's as clear and natural as the beard on my face. 

 

My wife is currently in and out of hospital.  They have no clue the causes, or the cure.  She's hovered near death as well and I look at my 12 year old son, our home with three cats and all the things reflecting our 29 years together and I accept all of it.  Yes, she is in pain.  Yes this digs deep into my personality.  But I am not suffering.

 

I am present.  I am here for her, offering healing, offering presence, just... being.

Connected and loving.  Bouyant and clear.

Fully sensing and accepting my responsibility in all of it.

 

It's remarkably freeing.  So bouyant.  Hard to describe with words if you're not in it.

I understand when others even get upset hearing such things... i used to as well.

After reading Rex's warning above, I was feeling some concern, some doubt - even thought of deleting my posts.

There's real truth to what he says and it's certainly not my intention to hurt anyone.

This post makes me glad we arrived here.

My own "break-throughs" have come through deep trauma and pain as well.

My love to you and your beautiful family.

_/\__/\__/\_

[rex]

9 minutes ago, steve said:

 

My apologies

Perhaps I should stop here.

Thanks

No apologies needed. This is a specialised forum with an audience seeking specialised knowledge which you’re generously catering to. It’s not exactly like you’re going on national news media commenting on current misfortunes. Reading some of the responses  in the thread I’m just pointing out that wider audiences may not accept these insights and that audience, time and place are important factors.

[KuroShiro]

23 hours ago, steve said:

Yes

Blame is usually defined as assigning responsibility for a fault or a wrong.

In the Dzogchen teachings the core message is that there is no fault, there is no wrong, everything is precisely as it is.

Nothing is out of place. 

Dzogchen means great perfection, that describes our natural state.

So blame is irrelevant although responsibility for the practitioner is paramount. 

I'm a beginner so take what I say with a grain of salt, but that's my interpretation.

 

I understand what you're saying about the Dzogchen teachings but blame should be irrelevant only when you're already at a higher level, no?  Don't you have to deal with blame if you're just starting to put these teachings into practice?

 

 

23 hours ago, steve said:

Someone was inappropriately instructed to throw away personal belongings of several people where I work this morning, including my own. Several people were furious and gave them both a hard time. I see it as my failure for leaving things piled up rather than storing things appropriately or taking them home. Then I look at it as an opportunity to let go of these things, whatever they may be and move on.

 

In general, when someone makes a mistake or causes me a problem, I do my best to look at how I could have anticipated or prevented it rather than blame or punish them for their actions. After all, they are just the agent of the universe in action. It puts me in mind of Zhuangzi's parable The Empty Boat.

 

I'm having trouble understanding how what you're saying might not lead to blaming oneself.

This would make more sense to me:

"I see it as my failure for leaving things piled up rather than storing things appropriately or taking them home. Then I look at it as an opportunity to let go of these things, whatever they may be and move on."

 

 

23 hours ago, steve said:

Once again, there is no blame here.

Karma is simply an observation, not a force or entity to bear blame or responsibility.

I look at it more like a mathematical equation or physical process.

Actions lead to consequence.

Right and wrong, good and bad, blame and fault... these are simply judgements we assign based on our perspective and conditioning. Such judgement doesn't exist outside of the mind. This seems to me to be similar to Chapter 5 of the Dao De Jing that discusses straw dogs.

 

Forgive my ignorance, I know nothing about karma. I thought it was related to good/bad, right/wrong.

 

 

 

23 hours ago, steve said:

No better field of practice than driving! Someone cuts me off or aggressively pushes in front, rather than looking at it as their fault and getting angry or aggressive, I try to see it as my responsibility to anticipate their maneuver, their need, and accommodate them. I recently had the insight to try and drive in such a way as to always try to make the other driver feel comfortable. 

 

Let's say in this situation one has made progress and no longer shouts and honks at the other driver. No external reactions but thoughts of anger... still arise, what do you do then? Do you let go of that thought and jump to "try to see it as my responsibility to anticipate their maneuver, their need, and accommodate them."?

 

I try to do that as well - defensive driving - mainly to avoid accidents, etc. Now that I think about it, this does seems to lead to some sort of self erasing, putting the focus away from the self during the drive. When I drive on the highway lots of cars very close to each other pass me and I blame them - these guys don't know how to drive, there shouldn't be any accidents on a highway...
 

Edited May 12, 2018 by KuroShiro

[doc benway]

17 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

I understand what you're saying about the Dzogchen teachings but blame should be irrelevant only when you're already at a higher level, no?  Don't you have to deal with blame if you're just starting to put these teachings into practice?

Yes and yes

 

17 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

I'm having trouble understanding how what you're saying might not lead to blaming oneself.

This would make more sense to me:

"I see it as my failure for leaving things piled up rather than storing things appropriately or taking them home. Then I look at it as an opportunity to let go of these things, whatever they may be and move on."

It makes more sense to me too and gives you an idea of my level of mastery! HaH

 

17 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

Forgive my ignorance, I know nothing about karma. I thought it was related to good/bad, right/wrong.

Similar to above, it is all about depth of insight. It’s really about interconnectedness, not judgement.

 

 

17 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

Let's say in this situation one has made progress and no longer shouts and honks at the other driver. No external reactions but thoughts of anger... still arise, what do you do then? Do you let go of that thought and jump to "try to see it as my responsibility to anticipate their maneuver, their need, and accommodate them."?

I think better to just let go and rest in the moment. The other stuff is maybe the reflection later.

 

17 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

I try to do that as well - defensive driving - mainly to avoid accidents, etc. Now that I think about it, this does seems to lead to some sort of self erasing, putting the focus away from the self during the drive. When I drive on the highway lots of cars very close to each other pass me and I blame them - these guys don't know how to drive, there shouldn't be any accidents on a highway...
 

No better practice than compassionate driving!

Maybe compassionate eating...

[doc benway]

I love synchronicity...

 

TWR just posted two teachings on Facebook Live that are related to this topic.

The first is a guided meditation on healing pain - https://www.facebook.com/tenzinwangyalrinpoche/videos/10156902426577437/

The second is on the wisdom of emptiness - https://www.facebook.com/tenzinwangyalrinpoche/videos/10156902598272437/

They are related

 

 

 

[Jox]

On 5/11/2018 at 12:43 AM, steve said:

I practice Yungdrung Bön

Would you like to share about the "structure" of your training in general?

[manitou]

There's a way of looking at accepting responsibility that involves the fact that we actually manifest that which comes our way.  If one takes into consideration the communal nature of our 'selves' (not really separate at all) and also takes into consideration the fact that linear time is all our linear minds are capable of, it's all actually happening Now, not really in a linear fashion.  The deed has already been done.  In some sort of synchronistic fashion, all dynamics are happening Here and Now, and the thing that determines what we 'manifest' are the very things that our essence needs for further development.

[Daemon]

This is all a rather grandiose recipe for disaster cooked up by people who struggle to differentiate between theories about the absolute and the practical steps that are necessary to prevent the abuse of self and others.

 

☮️

[doc benway]

40 minutes ago, manitou said:

There's a way of looking at accepting responsibility that involves the fact that we actually manifest that which comes our way.  If one takes into consideration the communal nature of our 'selves' (not really separate at all) and also takes into consideration the fact that linear time is all our linear minds are capable of, it's all actually happening Now, not really in a linear fashion.  The deed has already been done.  In some sort of synchronistic fashion, all dynamics are happening Here and Now, and the thing that determines what we 'manifest' are the very things that our essence needs for further development.

 

[Daemon]

So, @steve  is superior because, unlike his workmates, he didn't react normally by getting upset about the fact that someone had thrown his personal possessions in the bin?

 

☮️

[doc benway]

1 minute ago, Daemon said:

So, @steve  is superior because, unlike his workmates, he didn't react normally by getting upset about the fact that someone had thrown his personal possessions in the bin?

 

☮️

 

Not superior, I just didn't get as angry.

A few of them were really angry.

It didn't bother me that much.

No big deal -

Why the animosity?

 

[Daemon]

Why do you jump to the conclusion that there's animosity?

 

☮️

[Daemon]

Do you have some sort of problem with my contribution @steve?

Is there some sort of issue with your workmates because they reacted normally?

Are you struggling with being questioned about your opening assertions about superiority and inferiority?

 

☮️