A practitioner's responsibility

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

I think this is a network of consciousness- the pupils of your eyes recognize The Essence in the pupils of my eyes - and of dogs, and birds, and all other living things.  The web is complete ,...

 

There is something so special in that connection.

The warmth that radiates when a stranger, or friend, or animal responds to a genuine smile.

 

[Daemon]

@steve

 

So, now you're back to guessing and you're assuming that you're not projecting your own hostility onto me because you don't know which of many practices to use in order to discover what's going on for you emotionally?

 

☮️

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

For a month or so I was very much 'in tune' and in the right place at the right time saying and doing exactly what was needed in relation to the people around me, but this state passed when certain specific circumstances changed. This was a time when I might have accepted that I really was responsible for everything, but I was also intuitively acting in the best interests of everyone at the time, including myself. 

 

The part missing for me in following the absolute responsibility theory without it being based on personal inner attainment is the intuitive ability to act in the best interests of everyone and myself. It's blind responsibility. I want to be led to the correct action, which happens with a strong connection to the subconscious/intuition, instead of just honing my ability to accept circumstances that I can't understand or control, and trusting that there is a reason, or conjuring a reason up. 

 

 

Important to remember this instruction does not apply to us in a relative sense. Bindi and Steve are not responsible for everything in their lives. This is not a philosophy of life, it's a training instruction. The practitioner is invited to look at their role in each set of circumstances they find themselves at any given moment.

 

So rather than try to figure out how to be fully responsible for everything, take any given situation where there is conflict or struggle and simply look at what your options are, how you may have contributed to that particular situation, and see if there is an opportunity there to make a change or see something a little different. If not, let it go and see if it works with other situations. That's how to apply it. 

 

The other aspect of this that comes over time is that when we open up enough, we come into contact with that very source you are pointing to. The ultimate source of intuition. After all, that very "personal inner attainment" I'm referring to is letting go of whatever is blocking the connection to that source. Not blind at all - it is seeing more clearly than ever before. 

[Miroku]

2 hours ago, Daemon said:

@steve

 

So, now you're back to guessing and you're assuming that you're not projecting your own hostility onto me because you don't know which of many practices to use in order to discover what's going on for you emotionally?

 

☮️

Dude, I am no saint nor am I the brightest tool in the shed but honestly I don't think he is projecting. The problem is that the way you write things is kinda attack-ish. Not gonna guess and assume since you are so much against it but yeah I would not be surprised if it was intentional. You ignoring yourself and pointing that steve has some issues to deal with is kinda d-ish. So leave it already or join in the discussion a constructive way.

[doc benway]

33 minutes ago, Miroku said:

Dude, I am no saint nor am I the brightest tool in the shed but honestly I don't think he is projecting. The problem is that the way you write things is kinda attack-ish. Not gonna guess and assume since you are so much against it but yeah I would not be surprised if it was intentional. You ignoring yourself and pointing that steve has some issues to deal with is kinda d-ish. So leave it already or join in the discussion a constructive way.

 

There are multiple sock puppets in this community who come and go with different names and avatars but can't seem to let go of old wounds or other bad feelings. This one seems familiar somehow. 

Perfect opportunity to practice...

 

[CloudHands]

4 hours ago, manitou said:

I think both.

 

"I" agree with what "you" have expressed. I see in this vision no place for "I" but only "We" or "I" fully understood as a part of the One. In this case responsibility also no more takes the meaning of being "in charge of" but playing the role we are/have.

 

Does that fit the OP ?

 

Words are tricky, writers too sometimes...

[manitou]

41 minutes ago, CloudHands said:

 

"I" agree with what "you" have expressed. I see in this vision no place for "I" but only "We" or "I" fully understood as a part of the One. In this case responsibility also no more takes the meaning of being "in charge of" but playing the role we are/have.

 

Does that fit the OP ?

 

Words are tricky, writers too sometimes...

 

LOL.  Thank "you" for your response.  "I" would like to agree with your statement about responsibility not taking the meaning of being "in charge".  To take responsibility for one's life is to take responsibility for one's thoughts, words, actions.  There's nothing about taking charge that I can see there.  But the result is that we are no longer victims, even if we are in an auto accident or our spouse dies.

 

When Silent Thunder was relating his astounding experience in the hospital, it very much reminded me of something that Eckhart Tolle says, and how his ego left his body at a time when there was so much pain and fear in him that he just couldn't take it any more.  He just woke up one morning and it was all gone.   The same sort of assurance came over him that came over Silent Thunder.  It's as though he enlightened in a new way, due to the fact that he had somehow gotten underneath his ego to his essence with pain and fear as a catalyst.  

[CloudHands]

 

1 hour ago, manitou said:

he had somehow gotten underneath his ego to his essence with pain and fear as a catalyst.  

 

Now you crossed the line and that's christical !

Sorry, I had to do that joke...

 

I see. Steve clarified, its a technique. But the technique has some truth to say. Like if some enlightened  person tries to offer you a path to share the vision he has/had/has had.

Edited May 13, 2018 by CloudHands

[Daemon]

@Miroku

 

Firstly, and most importantly, you might want to consider that's it's probably very unhelpful to yourself to put yourself down like that?

 

Secondly, I'm doing my best to be as constructive as possible, so you're certainly wise in not jumping to the wrong conclusion.

 

Thirdly, what you're describing as "attackish", I view as being (mildly) challenging and (from my perspective) it should be well within the capacity of even a mediocre practitioner to cope with that mild level of challenge, so I find his response reaction odd, especially given the subject that he's attempting to tackle in this thread and the fact that he decided to illustrate anecdotally that he seems to consider that he behaved as a superior practitioner at work.

In no way have I resorted to ad hominem, as Steve attempted to portray it (and I'm still waiting for him to figure out for himself why he feels that way). I've even gone to the trouble of pointing out to him that there's a practice within his own tradition that he could  use to figure it out for himself (as the peculiar graphic with which he used in reply to my question seemed to me to be an indication that he was stuck).

 

☮️

[Daemon]

7 hours ago, rex said:

Nice to get a mention but I’m sure that wasn’t me.  Not bring free myself I do seek the guidance of others.

 

 

I was referring to the extremely interesting and enlightening paper about Narcissism and the Moses Complex (which I believe I quoted somewhere)?

Does that ring any bells for you?

 

☮️

 

 

[rex]

Sorry I must have missed something and picked up the wrong end of the stick?

 

Steve’s opening quote was presumably from Bon and about handling the circumstances of our lives which are the result of karma?

 

So the bombshell of “The superior practitioner takes full responsibility for everything that occurs in her life - 100%” is not what it literally states and “does not apply to us in a relative sense. Bindi and Steve are not responsible for everything in their lives.”

 

Isn’t this the response of the mediocre practitioner? “The mediocre practitioner takes partial responsibility.”

 

Isn’t the opening line a bombshell precisely because it is meant to be taken literally? It’s meant to instill horror of wandering in samsara and engender compassion for those wandering helplessly blown about by the winds of karma.

 

That’s the whole point of the Noble Truth of Suffering and the 12 Links of Dependent Origination -  through actions rooted in ignorance beings create karma and are born into circumstances beyond their control, though the volitional actions which created the karma were in their control.

 

All quotes are lifted from Steve’s messages  - sorry can’t do multiple quotes and editing on my device.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by rex
Format & numerous tpyos

[Daemon]

I was discussing the problem of leaders and followers with Steve earlier and noting that you'd contributed to this thread, I remembered your reference and assumed that you were in agreement with me  about the issue.

It seems that you don't agree with me and that you therefore disagree with Steve's view on the matter as well?

 

☮️

[Daemon]

On 12/05/2018 at 7:46 PM, Daemon said:

@phil

 

Indeed. Developing sufficient emotional maturity to be able to respond without the need to be led by someone else is where freedom is found. That's real responsibility.

People who are free have no need of leaders (or of followers), as @rex pointed out on another thread.

 

☮️

 

On 12/05/2018 at 9:24 PM, steve said:

 

Very true statements.

Equally true for me that free people can still learn and grow through the guidance and example of others.

 

 

@rex

 

That was the context.

 

☮️

[Slim]

Great discussion. 100% responsible for everything in our lives, as a practice not a philosophy. The Taoist lineage I’m involved with has the same practice. It’s powerful, life changing stuff. Before today I hadn’t heard anyone else talk about this, only my teacher, nice to know others have this too. Thanks for sharing Steve!

 

[Apech]

I've been following this thread with interest and I'd like to ask what the various contributors mean by 'responsibility'.  If I take 100% responsibility for what happens what does that actually mean.  Is it just an attitude? or some kind of commitment to action?

 

 

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

I've been following this thread with interest and I'd like to ask what the various contributors mean by 'responsibility'.  If I take 100% responsibility for what happens what does that actually mean.  Is it just an attitude? or some kind of commitment to action?

 

 

I figure it means that you forgive everyone else for being jerks not in control of Themselves, and blame yourself instead because you somehow have the powers of free will they dont.

[Apech]

36 minutes ago, Stosh said:

I figure it means that you forgive everyone else for being jerks not in control of Themselves, and blame yourself instead because you somehow have the powers of free will they dont.

 

 

for me, forget blame, either for yourself or for the jerks - blaming others or blaming yourself is just weakening.  

 

I like the idea of being able to respond to situations adequately (response-able)... in that sense being more able to deal with whatever shit life throws at you.  I don't like the idea of making yourself the culprit.  But I don't know anything about the Bon teaching Steve quoted.  And although I read this thread I got a bit lost in the back and forth.

 

 

[manitou]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

I've been following this thread with interest and I'd like to ask what the various contributors mean by 'responsibility'.  If I take 100% responsibility for what happens what does that actually mean.  Is it just an attitude? or some kind of commitment to action?

 

 

 

speaking just for myself (and I am admittedly way out there) I will often ask myself "why am I manifesting this?" and it helps uncover things within myself that can be worked on.  How did I participate in or contribute to this problem?  As to forgiving everyone else for being jerks not in control of themselves, I have to (sometimes belatedly) remember that they too are a strand of 'The Intelligence', and that this is all happening within the design of the puzzle.  Yes, to me it's an attitude, but an attitude that dictates my further actions.  It actually breeds compassion.  If I go around thinking that things are arbitrarily happening to me from out of the blue, it's easy to become a victim in my mind.  To me, it's a very helpful attitude in becoming a better person.

 

The only commitment to action that I can see is the willingness to question my part in the whole, and to follow up with the appropriate actions.

[KuroShiro]

3 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

for me, forget blame, either for yourself or for the jerks - blaming others or blaming yourself is just weakening.  

 

I like the idea of being able to respond to situations adequately (response-able)... in that sense being more able to deal with whatever shit life throws at you.  I don't like the idea of making yourself the culprit.  But I don't know anything about the Bon teaching Steve quoted.  And although I read this thread I got a bit lost in the back and forth.

 

 

 

I don't think you can forget blame, at least not until you're at a higher level as Steve has confirmed.

To me this seems to be a path to walk on, (perhaps) complemented by other practices. You try to put it in practice and that will change you, gradually. Then there might be moments of sudden realization and if I understand it correctly once you're at a higher level there is no such thing as "shit life throws at you".

[Apech]

9 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

speaking just for myself (and I am admittedly way out there) I will often ask myself "why am I manifesting this?" and it helps uncover things within myself that can be worked on.  How did I participate in or contribute to this problem?  As to forgiving everyone else for being jerks not in control of themselves, I have to (sometimes belatedly) remember that they too are a strand of 'The Intelligence', and that this is all happening within the design of the puzzle.  Yes, to me it's an attitude, but an attitude that dictates my further actions.  It actually breeds compassion.  If I go around thinking that things are arbitrarily happening to me from out of the blue, it's easy to become a victim in my mind.  To me, it's a very helpful attitude in becoming a better person.

 

The only commitment to action that I can see is the willingness to question my part in the whole, and to follow up with the appropriate actions.

 

I think I'm quite out there too  .

 

The idea that we manifest situations - probably because we need to learn something is sympatico to me.  Also although I do occasionally sit around getting angry at the jerks - I know that it is counter productive - especially as it characterises me as 'victim' - my usual conclusion is that if I go back over some situation where I got shit on by someone - then there is some element where I was complicit in what happened.  And while I might chew the carpet a little I don't want to be dominated by the blaming thing.  

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

I don't think you can forget blame, at least not until you're at a higher level as Steve has confirmed.

To me this seems to be a path to walk on, (perhaps) complemented by other practices. You try to put it in practice and that will change you, gradually. Then there might be moments of sudden realization and if I understand it correctly once you're at a higher level there is no such thing as "shit life throws at you".

 

 

So?  Carry on blaming till you get to a high spiritual level?  I think I'd rather chuck blame out of the window now.

[Stosh]

Ok, Youre tooling along on the way to work, and somebody on their phone ,slams into you... I blame them, Steve and  Manitou have to quit their job,   and Apech doesnt think  anyone is responsible

[KuroShiro]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

 

So?  Carry on blaming till you get to a high spiritual level?  I think I'd rather chuck blame out of the window now.

 

The opposite, you try to stop the blaming. But this is not an on/off switch, that would be easy, you can't "chuck blame out of the window now" - unless you know something I don't in that case please share how you do it.

[johndoe2012]

.

Edited June 10, 2018 by johndoe2012

[Daemon]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

I've been following this thread with interest and I'd like to ask what the various contributors mean by 'responsibility'.  If I take 100% responsibility for what happens what does that actually mean.  Is it just an attitude? or some kind of commitment to action?

 

 

For me, it means that I need to take responsibility for my own responses (actions or inactions, although not for my feelings, which are just information flow, which can only be heard properly if I don't judge them).

For example, if I were surrounded by people who were really upset that their possessions had been binned, I have some choices. However, firstly I'd need to be able to deal with my own actual emotional reaction. Only then do I need to decide whether I'm able to offer anything to others to help them to process their emotional reactions. For that to happen, I first need to be in touch with my own feelings (and with those of others) non-judgementally.

However, I still need to make value judgements about actions, (both my own actions and those of others) because my actions will have consequences for which I will have some degree of responsibility. In this specific workplace example, I might need to take some responsibility to act help others to process their difficult feelings because we would all share the responsibility to maintain a happy, peaceful working environment (and that would also help me as I'd be part of the group dynamic). What would not (in my view) be helpful would be to judge those others as having unreasonable feelings of attachments to objects of emotional value to them. Representational objects can play a vital role (for example, shrines, flags, wedding rings, engagement rings, religious texts, places we love to visit in nature).

But I'd only be competent to help others deal with their feelings if I'm really in touch with my own feelings and I'm able empathically to resonate with them without either cutting off my own feelings or being overwhelmed their feelings. 

 

☮️