A practitioner's responsibility

[doc benway]

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

Wouldn't dismantling the conditioned responses be the necessary work? 

 

In a Dzogchen context, the answer would be no.

I mention that because it is the source of the OP.

Rather than dismantling conditioned responses, the responder is addressed.

[Jeff]

13 minutes ago, steve said:

 

In a Dzogchen context, the answer would be no.

I mention that because it is the source of the OP.

Rather than dismantling conditioned responses, the responder is addressed.

 

Wouldnt it be fair to say that the conditioned responses do sort of spontaneously dismantle on their own as part of the natural process of residing (in Rigpa)?

[manitou]

Steve, how can the conditioned responses and the responder be separated one from the other?  Our ego is constructed from conditioned responses and stuff other people have thrust upon us.  It's life that does dismantle the ego by having us hit our heads against the wall over and over - and yet there is an easier way.  The willingness to look at ourselves and make the changes of the dynamics on our own, if willingness is there.

[KuroShiro]

 

On 5/12/2018 at 2:53 AM, KuroShiro said:

I'm having trouble understanding how what you're saying might not lead to blaming oneself.

This would make more sense to me:

"I see it as my failure for leaving things piled up rather than storing things appropriately or taking them home. Then I look at it as an opportunity to let go of these things, whatever they may be and move on."

 

I think now this makes sense to me:

"From now on I'll (try to) not leave things piled up. I'll store things or take them home." Then I look at it as an opportunity to let go of these things, whatever they may be and move on.

 

 

On 5/10/2018 at 11:40 PM, steve said:

It is not easy, it is not something most people ever achieve in their lifetimes, even dedicated practitioners, but that's what it means.

That's the way we're asked to engage with our practices and our lives.

It's very important to be honest with ourselves about this. In the West, we find it very difficult to look at ourselves as inferior or even mediocre. It's painful and embarrassing. It's not as difficult in the East. If we try to practice at a level we have not reached, we will only be frustrated and fail to make progress. I'm mediocre at best but I'm making progress.

The interesting thing is that the more comfortable I become with this, the more liberated I feel - very counter-intuitive.

 

On 5/11/2018 at 11:37 PM, steve said:

The challenging parts are letting go of different manifestations of ignorance... mistaking who we are at an absolute level with who we are at a relative level: over-identifying with the thoughts, the body, our projections, our emotions, etc... The next challenge is consistency and dedication. Next challenge is integration into life. 

 

On 5/13/2018 at 3:32 PM, steve said:

In a sense, it does the opposite of bolstering the ego.

It cuts right through.

That's what makes it so painful and shocking in extreme situations.

 

This seems to be important, no higher levels without transcending the ego. Would you say that when fully integrated into life this "cuts right through" is the ultimate finish line of this teaching?

 

 

On 5/11/2018 at 4:52 PM, silent thunder said:

Recently, in January, I crossed over another level of understanding on this topic.

Lying in hospital, hovering on the line between alive and crossing over for several days as my blood went septic from the posioning due to the ruptures in my colon...  I had the full experience of my own responsibility for all of it.  Every bit of it.  It was beyond just mere mental understanding... I experienced my responsibility in my bones, in my very blood.

It was one of the single most beautiful, bouyant and empowering moments I've ever experienced.  Empowering as well... because the moment the cascade of understanding really bloomed in my awareness... the palpable sense that I had put myself there and thus, could also pull myself where I was drawn next... to health, or to the other side...  I was no longer a helpless, poor me, streaming about in the river of fate.

When I claimed complete responsibility for being there, for the experience and the results... gratitude such as I have never known, opened up within and without... saturating me.

 

On 5/11/2018 at 11:46 PM, steve said:

My own "break-throughs" have come through deep trauma and pain as well.

 

On 5/13/2018 at 7:36 PM, manitou said:

When Silent Thunder was relating his astounding experience in the hospital, it very much reminded me of something that Eckhart Tolle says, and how his ego left his body at a time when there was so much pain and fear in him that he just couldn't take it any more.  He just woke up one morning and it was all gone.   The same sort of assurance came over him that came over Silent Thunder.  It's as though he enlightened in a new way, due to the fact that he had somehow gotten underneath his ego to his essence with pain and fear as a catalyst.  

 

Suffering leads/seems to lead to a connection to the Divine, no inner cultivation needed, I find this very interesting.

 

 

On 5/14/2018 at 12:20 AM, Nathan Brine said:

Great discussion. 100% responsible for everything in our lives, as a practice not a philosophy. The Taoist lineage I’m involved with has the same practice. It’s powerful, life changing stuff. Before today I hadn’t heard anyone else talk about this, only my teacher, nice to know others have this too. Thanks for sharing Steve!

 

 

Could you please share more details? Do you put it in practice in the same way as Steve has explained regarding the application in daily life?

Was this teaching introduced to you in the context of Wu Xing or any other?

 

 

13 hours ago, silent thunder said:

I wonder, to what level, how radically and deeply the conditioned aspects of personality can actually shift with awakening.   Even in this it seems our essential nature in awakening does not erase personality, nor emotions, rather the relationship with them shifts.

 

Very interesting! Could you please elaborate about that shifting relationship? I think the Classics say personality disappears when one is no longer "operating at the frequency of Wu Xing"?

Edited May 16, 2018 by KuroShiro

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Wouldnt it be fair to say that the conditioned responses do sort of spontaneously dismantle on their own as part of the natural process of residing (in Rigpa)?

 

Yes, exactly. 

The language would more along the lines that the conditioned responses are allowed to self-liberate through resting in the nature of mind.

In this method, the doer doesn't do or undo anything, she's just allowed to rest fully.

 

 

2 hours ago, manitou said:

Steve, how can the conditioned responses and the responder be separated one from the other?  Our ego is constructed from conditioned responses and stuff other people have thrust upon us.  It's life that does dismantle the ego by having us hit our heads against the wall over and over - and yet there is an easier way.  The willingness to look at ourselves and make the changes of the dynamics on our own, if willingness is there.

 

I acknowledge your point that the the separation between responder and response is artificial, but it is useful in this context.

Most of us spend most of our time living as the doer, so my objective here is to draw attention to that doer.

Rather than to trying to dismantle each and every specific, conditioned, situational response we engage in, our attention is turned to the subject. Until we are operating from a non-dual state, that subject is very much alive and well, quite separate from the object and intervening activity, and it is something most of us never even look at, let alone question its validity. Rather than try and address each of the infinite possible situational responses, we simply  focus on the responder. We let that one fully rest and ultimately, self-liberate. This cuts all of the potential responses at the root and brings us to that very experience of non-separation you are pointing at.

 

 

49 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

I think now this makes sense to me:

"From now on I'll (try to) not leave things piled up. I'll store things or take them home." Then I look at it as an opportunity to let go of these things, whatever they may be and move on.

 

I like your phrasing far better than mine.

The event pointed something out I can change in myself or allows me to see where I stand relative to the 3 categories of practitioners.

This is related to personal growth.

The objects and who threw them out can be my focus or freeing myself from the objects and better organizing myself can be my focus. For the committed practitioner, the latter is far more valuable than the objects and the personal offense taken.

 

 

49 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

This seems to be important, no higher levels without transcending the ego. Would you say that when fully integrated into life this "cuts right through" is the ultimate finish line of this teaching?

 

"Cuts right through" in Tibetan is trekchö. 

It means to cut through illusion, samsara, pain, over-identification, conceptualization...

It means cultivating the ability to drop right in to the nature of mind from wherever one is, whatever situation one is faced with.

I would say it is more a core component of the method than the ultimate finish line.

The ultimate finish line is complete liberation of oneself in order to help all other sentient beings reach liberation.

While this may sound trite, it can be the source of enormous support and fuel to progress along the path.

Another commonly touted ultimate finish line is the rainbow body, it is essentially the same objective framed in a more discrete package. 

 

 

49 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

Suffering leads/seems to lead to a connection to the Divine, no inner cultivation needed, I find this very interesting.

 

I once saw a film about this. It was far too disturbing to recommend anyone watch but the theme was that through intense suffering one could achieve some sort of realization or liberation. It was a French film called Martyrs. Watch at your own risk...

 

 

 

 

[manitou]

On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 6:40 PM, steve said:

 

Steve

A great piece of wisdom from the tradition I follow:

The superior practitioner takes full responsibility for everything that occurs in her life - 100%.

The mediocre practitioner takes partial responsibility.

The inferior practitioner blames everyone but himself.

 

 

 

 

Ever since reading your OP, this paragraph of yours reminds me of a passage in the DDJ:

 

When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao.
 

[doc benway]

11 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

Ever since reading your OP, this paragraph of yours reminds me of a passage in the DDJ:

 

When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao.
 

 

I find enormous similarity between Daoist and Dzogchen practice and view.

[silent thunder]

I'm drawn to share this paraphrase of a conversation I had with my son back in January.  I was lying in a hospital bed, recently stabilized from septic blood poisoning and reassuring him regarding the health crisis and near death experience.  It exemplifies at least some of what I'm trying to convey of my sensations regarding personal responsibility and connectedness to the nature of all phenomena.

 

"When one experiences the entire world as one's self... for me, there can be no other perception than personal full complicity in all that transpires.  I am fully responsible for this rupture in my gut buddy and the great thing about that is it means I'm not a victim in this, it's not happening to poor helpless me, who is dragged along by unseen forces beyond my control.  I'm as much the generative force in the illness as the entire cosmos... and what's truly wonderful in this realization, is the unshakable notion that I am also the generative force in the healing and regeneration of it.  I'm coming home soon... in fact... we can't be anywhere but home, it's all home" ~

 

This sentiment is echoed by the wonderful Alan Watts, who realized it in an experience spontaneously as a 17 year old boy in a moment of nonlocal clarity... and to whom I owe several key awakening realizations at the hands of his sharings.

 

He shares his senses of it thoroughly in his powerhouse of a book: This Is It!  Which I recommend highly to all seekers and near wakers.  Here is a small quote from the opening essay that echoes the sentiments coalescing in my own unshakable sensing and experience of it now. 

 

Spoiler

Quote

The most impressive fact in man's spiritual, intellectual, and poetic experience has always been, for me, the universal prevalence of those astonishing moments of insight which Richard Bucke called "cosmic concsiousness."  There is no really satisfactory name for this type of experience.  To call it mystical is to confuse it with visions of another world, or of gods and angels.  To call it spiritual or metaphysical is to suggest that it is not also extremely concrete and physical, while the term "cosmic consciousness" itself has the unpoetic flavor of occultist jargon.  But from all historical times and cultures we have reports of this same unmistakable sensation emerging, as a rule, quite suddenly and unexpectedly and from no clearly understood cause.

 

To the individual thus enlightened it appears as a vivid and overwhelming certainty that the universe, precisely as it is at this moment, as a whole and in every one of its parts, is so completely right as to need no explanation or justification beyond what it simply is.  Existence not only ceases to be a problem; the mind is so wonder-struck at the self-evident and self-sufficient fitness of things as they are, including what would ordinarily be thought the very worst, that it cannot find any word strong enough to express the perfections and beauty of the experience.

 

Its clarity sometimes gives the sensation that the world has become transparent or luminious, and its simplicity the sensation that it is pervaded and ordered by a supreme intelligence.   At the same time it is usual for the individual to feel that the whole world has become his own body, and that whatever he is has not only become, but always has been, what everything else is. 

 

It is not that he loses his identity to the point he feels he actually looks out through all other eyes, becoming literally omniscient, but rather that his individual consciousness and existence is a point of view temporarily adopted by something immeasurably greater than himself.

 

Spoiler

This bouyancy which has become my waking life is unshakable... this exultant simple and somewhat at times, overwhelming childlike joy at the pure awe of simple being.  Is there anything more amazing than simple presence? 

 

Even in the midst of the greatest physical pain I have known, there was unshakable knowingness that all is as it is and utterly perfect and joy emanated from all aspects of body and awareness...

I unfolded in the gratitude of the palpable experience of this perfection.

 

As it resonates now some months on... it is characterized by a continual opening, yielding and unfolding in simple presence. 

 

Luminous, Expansive, Blissful.  This is as true a thing as I have ever encountered.

 

Edited May 16, 2018 by silent thunder

[manitou]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

 

Rather than to trying to dismantle each and every specific, conditioned, situational response we engage in, our attention is turned to the subject. Until we are operating from a non-dual state, that subject is very much alive and well, quite separate from the object and intervening activity, and it is something most of us never even look at, let alone question its validity. Rather than try and address each of the infinite possible situational responses, we simply  focus on the responder. We let that one fully rest and ultimately, self-liberate. This cuts all of the potential responses at the root and brings us to that very experience of non-separation you are pointing at.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do now see your point about the 'doer', as you spoke of above.  Thanks for the clarification.

 

I come from a slightly different angle than many on this forum, being a recovering alcoholic (Yawns allowed for those who have heard me speak of this before).

 

It was urgent that I stop my alcoholic drinking 37 years ago.  It was that or the grave.  I opted for life.  I became a 12-stepper through Alcoholics Anonymous.  In working the steps (and continuing to do so ad infinitum) it is crucial to root out every defect of character that you can find within you.  The reason for this is so the alcoholic can remain comfortable enough to stay sober; plus, it stop a whole lotta bad karma, when the changes are made.  I had to admit that just about every single conclusion I'd ever come to in life was probably wrong.  My mind had to open fast, whereas it had never questioned my behavior before (as per Steve's discussion of the doer not questioning their part in things).  So, the person I am today is about 180 degrees different than the person I was 37 years ago, and I remain drinkless.  

 

However, I can well see what you are talking about, about letting your spiritual path gradually dissipate the offending dynamics; and I can see where this continues to happen within myself.  But I just thought I'd mention that there are those of us who had to go the 'fast, down, and dirty route', as in from substance recovery.  Too urgent to let the path gently unfold (although that happens as well) because the offending flaws are the very ones that created the need to drink from the repercussions.  A life full of drama required a dramatic remedy.

 

I love it when someone mentions the 5 element philosophy and the universe being the model for the man, and vice versa.  And why not?  The laws of nature all work the same way, whether it's on the micro or macro level.  Thanks for the mention of Wu Xing,  KuroShiro.

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

I'm drawn to share this paraphrase of a conversation I had with my son back in January.  I was lying in a hospital bed, recently stabilized from septic blood poisoning and reassuring him regarding the health crisis and near death experience.  It exemplifies at least some of what I'm trying to convey of my sensations regarding personal responsibility and connectedness to the nature of all phenomena.

 

"When one experiences the entire world as one's self... for me, there can be no other perception than personal full complicity in all that transpires.  I am fully responsible for this rupture in my gut buddy and the great thing about that is it means I'm not a victim in this, it's not happening to poor helpless me, who is dragged along by unseen forces beyond my control.  I'm as much the generative force in the illness as the entire cosmos... and what's truly wonderful in this realization, is the unshakable notion that I am also the generative force in the healing and regeneration of it.  I'm coming home soon... in fact... we can't be anywhere but home, it's all home" ~

 

This sentiment is echoed by the wonderful Alan Watts, who realized it in an experience spontaneously as a 17 year old boy in a moment of nonlocal clarity... and to whom I owe several key awakening realizations at the hands of his sharings.

 

He shares his senses of it thoroughly in his powerhouse of a book: This Is It!  Which I recommend highly to all seekers and near wakers.  Here is a small quote from the opening essay that echoes the sentiments coalescing in my own unshakable sensing and experience of it now. 

 

  Hide contents

 

  Hide contents

This bouyancy which has become my waking life is unshakable... this exultant simple and somewhat at times, overwhelming childlike joy at the pure awe of simple being.  Is there anything more amazing than simple presence? 

 

Even in the midst of the greatest physical pain I have known, there was unshakable knowingness that all is as it is and utterly perfect and joy emanated from all aspects of body and awareness...

I unfolded in the gratitude of the palpable experience of this perfection.

 

As it resonates now some months on... it is characterized by a continual opening, yielding and unfolding in simple presence. 

 

Luminous, Expansive, Blissful.  This is as true a thing as I have ever encountered.

 

 

Thank you 

 

[dwai]

Excellent and timely for me, that I read this thread just now. Thanks for sharing a beautiful path.

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

I do now see your point about the 'doer', as you spoke of above.  Thanks for the clarification.

 

I come from a slightly different angle than many on this forum, being a recovering alcoholic (Yawns allowed for those who have heard me speak of this before).

 

It was urgent that I stop my alcoholic drinking 37 years ago.  It was that or the grave.  I opted for life.  I became a 12-stepper through Alcoholics Anonymous.  In working the steps (and continuing to do so ad infinitum) it is crucial to root out every defect of character that you can find within you.  The reason for this is so the alcoholic can remain comfortable enough to stay sober; plus, it stop a whole lotta bad karma, when the changes are made.  I had to admit that just about every single conclusion I'd ever come to in life was probably wrong.  My mind had to open fast, whereas it had never questioned my behavior before (as per Steve's discussion of the doer not questioning their part in things).  So, the person I am today is about 180 degrees different than the person I was 37 years ago, and I remain drinkless.  

 

However, I can well see what you are talking about, about letting your spiritual path gradually dissipate the offending dynamics; and I can see where this continues to happen within myself.  But I just thought I'd mention that there are those of us who had to go the 'fast, down, and dirty route', as in from substance recovery.  Too urgent to let the path gently unfold (although that happens as well) because the offending flaws are the very ones that created the need to drink from the repercussions.  A life full of drama required a dramatic remedy.

 

I love it when someone mentions the 5 element philosophy and the universe being the model for the man, and vice versa.  And why not?  The laws of nature all work the same way, whether it's on the micro or macro level.  Thanks for the mention of Wu Xing,  KuroShiro.

 

Can't imagine what you went through...

_/\_

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2018 by steve

[manitou]

That was a beautiful video.  Thanks.

[Slim]

On 2018-05-16 at 8:44 AM, KuroShiro said:

 

 

 

 

 

Could you please share more details? Do you put it in practice in the same way as Steve has explained regarding the application in daily life?

Was this teaching introduced to you in the context of Wu Xing or any other?

 

Hi KuroShiro, sure I can talk about it. First off I practice the Dragon Gate Lineage as passed on by Wang Liping, and don’t speak for Taoism in general (if there is such a thing).

 

In his teaching Wang Liping emphasizes personal responsibility, and that life is up to each of us to figure out for ourselves.

 

Our present moment is a product of our past choices/actions (including past lives). I have chosen to be here. No matter how sucky the present moment is, I am %100 responsible for it. Furthermore, my interpretation of the present moment is based a choice. We chose a narrative, we chose our drama. Or as Wang Liping puts it, good and bad does not exist outside of our body. Therefore we are responsible for what happens to us.

 

However, this is a practice not a philosophy. It does not matter if the above is true or not, what matters is the results we get when we apply the perspective in every moment. I have been working with this for a few years and it’s changed my life.

 

For me this perspective/practice has allowed me to be much more present and accepting of the moment. And there is a lot of power in that. I can still take action, however when I do it seems to be much more appropriate and effective action, not bogged down with a lot of drama. Well, less drama anyway, it's a work in progress. 

 

Wang Liping talks about learning this from his teachers. They would use the phrase “just  the way it is” 就是這漾 (jiu shi zhei yang) every time something “bad” happened to them, implying they were responsible for it. They would have great fun with it, one time Wang Liping was eating a bowl of noodles and his teacher came over and knocked the bowl on the ground. When Wang Liping emotional reacted his teacher just laughed and said, “just the way it is.” Wang Liping explained that in that moment he had to accept he was responsible for his teacher knocking the bowl on the ground.

 

 

[Mudfoot]

6 hours ago, Nathan Brine said:

Wang Liping explained that in that moment he had to accept he was responsible for his teacher knocking the bowl on the ground.

You make it more sound like an acceptance that shit happens rather than being responsible for how things beyond your control unfold. 

 

Unless you are alluring to him practicing to remain in a state of expanded awareness. 

In that case, everything happens so you will have the chance to experience it, and I am sure you can draw that line of thought all the way out to taking responsibility for everything. 

 

As @Steve said earlier in this thread, an advanced practice. 

Edited May 19, 2018 by Mudfoot
Added sentence

[Mudfoot]

7 hours ago, Nathan Brine said:

Furthermore, my interpretation of the present moment is based a choice. We chose a narrative, we chose our drama. Or as Wang Liping puts it, good and bad does not exist outside of our body. Therefore we are responsible for what happens to us..

 

When you cut away the " I chose this incarnation ", I still feel this comes closer to having responsibility for ones reactions rather than being responsible for what happens in the world. 

 

And I still feel that trying to take responsibility for other peoples action, or for what happens in nature, is a dangerous road. 

 

Christianity taught that, you know; sin, punishment, abase yourself in front of god. 

[manitou]

6 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

 

And I still feel that trying to take responsibility for other peoples action, or for what happens in nature, is a dangerous road. 

 

 

 

 

Looked at it slightly differently, it can be looked at as All One.  We are all the same entity - life manifesting and expressing itself.  To take responsibility for everything is to realize that what I see in you is what is inside me as well, otherwise I wouldn't recognize it.  No need to point fingers and make judgments, as it would be to only be judging ourselves.

 

As I too see it, Christianity per se still does the punishment and abasement thing.  This is not to recognize the connectedness between all of us; it singles out and judges (at least the old type of Christianity - I don't know how they handle this now) and people can feel self-righteous and better than their neighbor because they judge.  I think it comes naturally to our human nature as it is now - but it is a true Practice to look with the eyes of love at everyone, regardless of what their deeds are.

 

There but by 'the grace of god' go I.  In any given situation - had I been given the same conditioning, I probably would have done that crime.  The criminal too is Life expressing itself.  I think the greatest challenge of all is to turn on the TV, watch the political news, and try and make no judgments.  To realize that 'that too is Me.'

 

In metaphysics this state is the 'I Am' consciousness.

[Michael Sternbach]

48 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

Looked at it slightly differently, it can be looked at as All One.  We are all the same entity - life manifesting and expressing itself.  To take responsibility for everything is to realize that what I see in you is what is inside me as well, otherwise I wouldn't recognize it.  No need to point fingers and make judgments, as it would be to only be judging ourselves.

 

As I too see it, Christianity per se still does the punishment and abasement thing.  This is not to recognize the connectedness between all of us; it singles out and judges (at least the old type of Christianity - I don't know how they handle this now) and people can feel self-righteous and better than their neighbor because they judge.  I think it comes naturally to our human nature as it is now - but it is a true Practice to look with the eyes of love at everyone, regardless of what their deeds are.

 

There but by 'the grace of god' go I.  In any given situation - had I been given the same conditioning, I probably would have done that crime.  The criminal too is Life expressing itself.  I think the greatest challenge of all is to turn on the TV, watch the political news, and try and make no judgments.  To realize that 'that too is Me.'

 

In metaphysics this state is the 'I Am' consciousness.

 

Well said, Manitou.

 

The philosophy that we are responsible not only for our own actions, but also for what happens to us, raises the question what level we are making some of our 'decisions' on, because, obviously, things can occur in our experience that we would find inacceptable on the level of the conscious mind.

 

However, the conscious mind isn't always aware of the big picture, and it is on that level where we are aware of it, more accurately, part of it, that we 'decide on' or 'agree to' everything that happens.

[manitou]

Put another way, this Consciousness is the awareness that is present before form presents itself.  To keep myself in the understanding, I always go back to the pupils of our eyes.  That black void, the only thing that all sentient bodies have in common.  The point of awareness, that invisible electricity that connects when two eyes, even man with a dog, connect.  Or Marbles and the hummingbird hovering in front of his face that he had the moment of connectedness with.

 

And from this 'idea', which is somehow conveyed through the meeting of the sperm and the egg, starts to divide and multiply and create a Bag of Skin and Bones around the void for the purpose of nothing more than to Sense.  To experience.

 

And this void is eternal, this pitch black thing.  It does not abide by time.  It is as real yesterday as it is today, and will be tomorrow.  To keep time in the equation, it is the awareness before form.  To take time out of the equation, it is the awareness that underlies form.  You can look at it either horizontally or vertically.

 

But as Mudfoot mentioned, this can be a very dangerous slope as long as ego is intact (i.e. our separate conditionings and backgrounds, the society and mores we are born into).  When ego is allowed to dissipate (can anyone actually do this 100%?) the harmony and connectedness manifests in all circumstances and relationships around us.  The ripples we make while in this state are immeasurable.  The ego thing is arbitrary.  We certainly need enough ego to avoid oncoming traffic.  But it is a matter of degrees, and the cause for many awakenings when ego is diminished to its lowest commonest denominator.

 

But most likely the only thing that will convince anyone of this is to see it happen in our own lives.  When we put our negative and judgmental thinking in its place and see life take a different direction.  It is then that we come to realize Who and What we really are.

Edited May 19, 2018 by manitou

[KuroShiro]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

I think the greatest challenge of all is to turn on the TV, watch the political news, and try and make no judgments. 

 

Bingo, this is hard. I don't know if watching the news and trying to make no judgements is the greatest challenge but I have been struggling with this.

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, KuroShiro said:

 

Bingo, this is hard. I don't know if watching the news and trying to make no judgements is the greatest challenge but I have been struggling with this.

 

I suggest the following experiment:

 

Pretend you are an extraterrestrian observer from a more advanced civilisation, watching the news just in order to understand the issues humanity is currently struggling with - detached, yet with compassion.

[silent thunder]

i used to fall into the concept that I was one thing.  Separate. 

 

i'd live in this concept for months and years and decades until presence and awareness dissolved the concept like fog in warm, morning sunshine.

 

now i can't escape the palpable sensation that this form that i used to consider one thing, is more akin to many tribes of trillions of tiny sentient beings.  What my teacher calls organs are no longer wiggly bundles of meat that mindlessly churn out processes, but vibrant living communities, comprised of millions of citizens with a common purpose, that have functions they fulfill within parameters of stimuli and in response to the environment around them. 

 

some of these tribes will even on occasion go into what appears as conflict from certain perspectives, over resources of food and healing... yet for the whole, this is considered vibrant health.

 

this body is not one thing.  i am not one thing, even in my own skin.  my skin used to seem like the container that kept me separate and proved i am an individual thing.  cut off.  apart and autonomous.

 

now the unshakable knowingness that my skin is the breathing, living bridge that directly connects me to all other phenomena.

 

it and i are one process.  inseparable. 

 

every meal is a merging of inner and outer, as is every inevitable excretion later on...

 

my mind didn't escape this process of mingling oneness either.

 

my thinking mind used to seem like one thing as well.  Separate.

 

now i regularly experience the thoughts in the mind coming from one of the myriad sources within my tribal organ body structure.

 

where is this one i that is so disconnected from all other phenomena that cause me to be a victim and seek out fault for actions and reactions to stimuli.

 

any longer, there is one, palpable flowing universe and i am I in all within All.

 

responsibility.  yes.  responsible.

not always pleasant, but unpleasant does not mean suffering

 

any longer there is bouyancy, clarity and calm acceptance, mingled with a loving presence and awareness.

[doc benway]

I think it's possible for a practitioner to get something out of this teaching on more than one level.

It's important to see where we are on our path and be honest with ourselves about that.

After all, that's precisely the purpose of this teaching. 

If we work with it at the appropriate level, it will be helpful.

If we try to understand at a different level conceptually, without the proper perspective gained through practice and experience, it becomes a distraction.

 

I don't know that the intention of this teaching is to help us go to the next level. 

This is more a gauge of where we are currently operating, indicated by what makes sense to us about this teaching and what doesn't. In order to go to the next level, we need to engage in whatever practices we have chosen to move us along our path. This teaching is not meant to be that core practice, IMO, but it can be a nice poke at the ego to try and go further.

 

At the level of the ego, we have the opportunity to take responsibility for our own (the ego's) actions.

This is a powerful thing and should not be dismissed lightly.

While the teaching refers to the inferior or lesser practitioner, it is not at all an inferior way of living life. 

It is the first and most important step we can take.

It makes no sense to take the teaching any further at this point.

The ego is very real and very much in charge and we need to work with it at this level.

 

Once we commit ourselves to see through the primacy of the ego, we can see this in a different context. Through practice, we soon see evidence that the ego is not what it seems. Similarly, it follows that the ego of others is equally illusory. At this level, the idea of holding ourselves vs others responsible breaks down. The Daoists talk about this elegantly (eg Zhuangzi, The Empty Boat; and Laozi DDJ Chapter 5 - straw dogs). What/who is there to take responsibility? Only the ego. So at this level, the instruction is that whenever the ego arises, whenever we experience challenging situations, we return to resting in the natural state. That is the ego's sole responsibility at this level of practice, to let go. Very much analogous to practicing Wu Wei and returning to or resting in the Way.

 

At the highest level of practice, this natural state becomes the default state, the primacy of the ego is gone. Like manitou points out, as long as we're alive there will also be ego. The difference is whether we identify with it as our very core being or if we see it as a mental function - often useful but often dysfunctional. When we are more identified with the fruits of our practice than the ego, it becomes more of an intermittent visitor, a troubadour, not who we are. At this level all is referred to as a display or ornament of the natural state, everything is said to be of one taste. At this level, the meaning of full responsibility has nothing to do with ego. It is of no threat whatsoever. To the contrary, it is ultimate liberation. 

 

At least that's how I am trying to make sense of this teaching. 

It's a continuing process for me.

 

A bit of traditional advice regarding these teachings is that there are 3 steps -

1. Hear the teaching - this means to listen quietly and deeply and be open to something new (I don't mean to not challenge but rather to quiet preconceived ideas, conditioning, and expectations and try to hear with fresh and open ears and mind)

2. Reflect on the meaning (take time to digest and process it, return to it regularly and stay open, this is a lifelong process)

3. Bring it into your life (apply it in real situations and observe the effects over time)

 

I appreciate everyone who contributed to this threat [! typo or Freudian slip? :D], I've learned a lot from all of you.

_/\_

Edited May 19, 2018 by steve

[manitou]

Beautiful response, Steve.  Finding the folks who are truly trying their best to walk the talk are few and far between.

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, steve said:

I think it's possible for a practitioner to get something out of this teaching on more than one level.

It's important to see where we are on our path and be honest with ourselves about that.

After all, that's precisely the purpose of this teaching. 

If we work with it at the appropriate level, it will be helpful.

If we try to understand at a different level conceptually, without the proper perspective gained through practice and experience, it becomes a distraction.

 

I don't know that the intention of this teaching is to help us go to the next level. 

This is more a gauge of where we are currently operating, indicated by what makes sense to us about this teaching and what doesn't. In order to go to the next level, we need to engage in whatever practices we have chosen to move us along our path. This teaching is not meant to be that core practice, IMO, but it can be a nice poke at the ego to try and go further.

 

At the level of the ego, we have the opportunity to take responsibility for our own (the ego's) actions.

This is a powerful thing and should not be dismissed lightly.

While the teaching refers to the inferior or lesser practitioner, it is not at all an inferior way of living life. 

It is the first and most important step we can take.

It makes no sense to take the teaching any further at this point.

The ego is very real and very much in charge and we need to work with it at this level.

 

Once we commit ourselves to see through the primacy of the ego, we can see this in a different context. Through practice, we soon see evidence that the ego is not what it seems. Similarly, it follows that the ego of others is equally illusory. At this level, the idea of holding ourselves vs others responsible breaks down. The Daoists talk about this elegantly (eg Zhuangzi, The Empty Boat; and Laozi DDJ Chapter 5 - straw dogs). What/who is there to take responsibility? Only the ego. So at this level, the instruction is that whenever the ego arises, whenever we experience challenging situations, we return to resting in the natural state. That is the ego's sole responsibility at this level of practice, to let go. Very much analogous to practicing Wu Wei and returning to or resting in the Way.

 

At the highest level of practice, this natural state becomes the default state, the primacy of the ego is gone. Like manitou points out, as long as we're alive there will also be ego. The difference is whether we identify with it as our very core being or if we see it as a mental function - often useful but often dysfunctional. When we are more identified with the fruits of our practice than the ego, it becomes more of an intermittent visitor, a troubadour, not who we are. At this level all is referred to as a display or ornament of the natural state, everything is said to be of one taste. At this level, the meaning of full responsibility has nothing to do with ego. It is of no threat whatsoever. To the contrary, it is ultimate liberation. 

 

At least that's how I am trying to make sense of this teaching. 

It's a continuing process for me.

 

A bit of traditional advice regarding these teachings is that there are 3 steps -

1. Hear the teaching - this means to listen quietly and deeply and be open to something new (I don't mean to not challenge but rather to quiet preconceived ideas, conditioning, and expectations and try to hear with fresh and open ears and mind)

2. Reflect on the meaning (take time to digest and process it, return to it regularly and stay open, this is a lifelong process)

3. Bring it into your life (apply it in real situations and observe the effects over time)

 

I appreciate everyone who contributed to this threat [! typo or Freudian slip? ], I've learned a lot from all of you.

_/\_