A practitioner's responsibility

[Daemon]

☮️

[manitou]

7 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

 

However, the conscious mind isn't always aware of the big picture, and it is on that level where we are aware of it, more accurately, part of it, that we 'decide on' or 'agree to' everything that happens.

 

 

This is the exciting part!  The subconscious mind of our collective self is non-local!  It contains all knowledge in all times, places, and locations.  Like a flock of birds suddenly all turning at the same instant, or a school of fish doing the same.  And we do have a tendency to all agree what 'reality' appears to be, only our own observations are different from everyone else's on earth is at any time because the sensory data has to make it's way through the baloney of our ego and everybody has experienced and interpreted life differently.  But our I Am selves has all the answers!  Every one of us has every answer there is.  But the darker the lens is of our ego, the less accurately we see the light.

 

It's like it's all backwards from what most of us were taught as children.

[rex]

On 13/05/2018 at 11:05 PM, Daemon said:

I was discussing the problem of leaders and followers with Steve earlier and noting that you'd contributed to this thread, I remembered your reference and assumed that you were in agreement with me  about the issue.

It seems that you don't agree with me and that you therefore disagree with Steve's view on the matter as well?

 

☮️

 

Sorry it's taken a while to get back to this one.

 

Yes in general I agree, people who are free have no need for followers or leaders, but then you've got to ask the question, free from what? Delusion, the five poisons, ignorance, malice, over-attachment to hedonistic pleasure, debt, duties and responsibilities, the need to work for a living etc.?

 

I don't think anyone is really totally free, but there are degrees of freedom based on personal integration and circumstances. It is good to be your own person, self aware with conscious values. As the saying goes, those who stand for nothing fall for anything. The ability to stand for something will depend on how free you are in yourself.

 

But is it possible to be so self-contained to be beyond receiving guidance and offering support to others?  I don't think anyone is beyond receiving guidance and those offering guidance can be motivated by genuine altruism. The rub is, does a teacher receive teachings from another teacher? When guidance is given, is it sought or unsolicited, given as friendly advice from one friend to another, or presented as an imperative? Does it increase the dependence on the teacher, or does it empower the recipients, increasing their personal integrity and independence from the teacher?

 

In some circles declaring that one wants to be a teacher rings alarm bells for those around them. Teaching is a role thrust upon them as a responsibility. Some advice and sharing can be more about the person than the advice itself with distinct self-congratulatory undertones.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by rex
tpyo

[Daemon]

Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to put together this thoughtful and nuanced response rex. I'm going to honour that by taking the necessary time and by making the necessary effort to respond to this with the considerable respect that it deserves.

 

☮️

 

 

[Daemon]

On 20/06/2018 at 11:51 AM, rex said:

 

Sorry it's taken a while to get back to this one.

 

Yes in general I agree, people who are free have no need for followers or leaders, but then you've got to ask the question, free from what? Delusion, the five poisons, ignorance, malice, over-attachment to hedonistic pleasure, debt, duties and responsibilities, the need to work for a living etc.?

 

I don't think anyone is really totally free, but there are degrees of freedom based on personal integration and circumstances. It is good to be your own person, self aware with conscious values. As the saying goes, those who stand for nothing fall for anything. The ability to stand for something will depend on how free you are in yourself.

 

But is it possible to be so self-contained to be beyond receiving guidance and offering support to others?  I don't think anyone is beyond receiving guidance and those offering guidance can be motivated by genuine altruism. The rub is, does a teacher receive teachings from another teacher? When guidance is given, is it sought or unsolicited, given as friendly advice from one friend to another, or presented as an imperative? Does it increase the dependence on the teacher, or does it empower the recipients, increasing their personal integrity and independence from the teacher?

 

In some circles declaring that one wants to be a teacher rings alarm bells for those around them. Teaching is a role thrust upon them as a responsibility. Some advice and sharing can be more about the person than the advice itself with distinct self-congratulatory undertones.

 

 

 

Having given this careful consideration, I discover that neither do I disagree, nor do I feel that (other than that) I have any significant to add to your commentary.

☮️

[rex]

On 10/08/2018 at 12:26 PM, Daemon said:

 

Having given this careful consideration, I discover that neither do I disagree, nor do I feel that (other than that) I have any significant to add to your commentary.

☮️

Cheers! The only thing I might add that it doesn’t account for the possibility of allowing teachers to provoke and push people beyond what they think they’re capable of.  Dangers of abuse notwithstanding, finding one to trust and distinguishing between genuine alarm bells and inertia’s resistance is a complex affair.

[Daemon]

At this point @rex, I feel that we diverge.

How is a "teacher" going to obtain informed consent?

(Between equals, the question does not arise.)

 

☮️

 

[rex]

By signing a disclaimer - just joking! Between equals the question can still arise, there could be the friend who calls you out on your bullshit with some home truths. It all depends on how they go about it and how it is received. 

 

I  think I’ve started broadening the idea of who or what can be considered a teacher. Maybe the idea of being pushed is from my experience of hierarchical institutions with formal relations between teacher and student. Perhaps there are qualitative differences between instructors, teachers and mentors and the nature of the relationship will be nuanced depending on the formal or informal context of the different relationships. 

 

Enemies and unpleasant experiences can be good teachers too. These will certainly push beyond comfort zones and ideas of equality will likely be an irrelevance as there can be little choice in the matter.

[Daemon]

For me, it comes down simply to the balance of power. Between equals, there's no imbalance. As soon an imbalance is perpetrated, does not the student becomes a slave and the teacher their master?

Is not each then bound to the other?

In that, where is liberation?

 

☮️

 

[rideforever]

 

On 18/05/2018 at 11:09 PM, Nathan Brine said:

Wang Liping talks about learning this from his teachers. They would use the phrase “just  the way it is” 就是這漾 (jiu shi zhei yang) every time something “bad” happened to them, implying they were responsible for it. They would have great fun with it, one time Wang Liping was eating a bowl of noodles and his teacher came over and knocked the bowl on the ground. When Wang Liping emotional reacted his teacher just laughed and said, “just the way it is.” Wang Liping explained that in that moment he had to accept he was responsible for his teacher knocking the bowl on the ground.

 

For whatever good these practices may do, and given the desperate state of many humans understandable.
However this quote about Wang Liping just shows how stupid and mendacious and disempowering these ideas are.
There is far too little masculine energy in it.

The philosophy of I don't exist is an old rationalisation to existing.
 

What's wrong with existing ... yes as an individual ?
Is there a problem with that ?
Oh you feel the One do you ?
Good.   So do I.
But I am not the One.
I am the One in this individuated expression and I do not know the thoughts of the One.
The One controls this whole universe.
Do you ?
Of course not.
You are an individual.
You are individuated.
OmManePadmeHum  OmManePadmeHum  OmManePadmeHum  OmManePadmeHum  

Stop doing that !
Stop trying to escape.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by rideforever

[rideforever]

You are 100% responsible for what you experience and your actions.

 

Am I responsible for gravity ?  No.  It is collective
Am I responsible for being half-mad ?  No.  Existence is responsible as well.

 

It's a punishment to ... try to fix all your errors, because you smell, clean yourself up.
Oops something else went wrong.   You are wrong.   Fix it up.
Fix it up and fix it up.
Take responsibility.

 

Wow what hatred.  What misery.

 

Where is the room for creative expression creative solutions creative dancing humour and growth.
There is no growth, just clean yourself up you smell, you don't exist, damn you damn you.

How much religious violence has been caused by such views, tragic, nasty, barbaric.

 

Law of Attraction also expresses that you reap what you sow ... but in a expansive explorative future-positive way.
Choose what you prefer.
Because you were birthed to BE.
Existence wishes you to BE.
Please BE.
Please grow into BEing.
Please explore as the ambassador of the divine song.  
May you sing beautiful songs of your own creation.
Undreamt of music, epic yearning love.
Yes.

 

We must learn to wield, love, hope, humour, exploration, the source ... we are the herald of the source announcing his arrival.

 

 

 

One very important conclusion is that you must protect yourself, and conceal your strength.

The crowds out there always want to see inside you inside your flesh, they don't like it if you conceal things.

But this is your destruction to accept that.

 

Growth happens through careful practice in closed centres, the esoteric is guarded, the exoteric is thrown outside the door for the masses.
One must conceal one's light on this planet, one must guard it, shield it, and create circumstances for it.

 

Any naive notions that we are all one - if they cause you to open yourself you will be eaten alive.

I think that is important.

 

Though it is always wonderful to  acknowledge the degree to which the circumstances you find emerge from you, but we can't limit ourselves to an isolated or idealistic or negative view of what that means.

 

We live on a planet where most of our species are deeply unconscious and seemed to have little hope of feeling the path in their lifetimes.   This is not a good situation.   One can imagine how it would be if you were born on a planet of higher consciousness.   We seem to be just below the threshhold, just at a place where there is a lot of pain.   So we can only be brave, work hard, travel fast.   However difficult it is, every shock or trauma, must lead to action.   Many enlightened beings went close to death to realise, and were also happy to die afterwards.

 

So ... if you can harmonize all those various ideas into one life ... well you'd have done pretty well !!!

 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by rideforever

[rex]

On 28/08/2018 at 3:11 PM, Daemon said:

For me, it comes down simply to the balance of power. Between equals, there's no imbalance. As soon an imbalance is perpetrated, does not the student becomes a slave and the teacher their master?

Is not each then bound to the other?

In that, where is liberation?

 

☮️

 

Sure, there’s no liberation in bondage. In terms of personal power there may well be a marked difference. There’s equal intrinsic human rights, so as long the teacher student relationship respects these all’s well.

[Daemon]

At this point, I feel that we converge again Rex.

 

☮️

 

[rex]

For now Daemon  ; )

[Daemon]

Perhaps that's enough?

 

☮️

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Daemon said:

Perhaps that's enough?

 

☮️

 

 

 

Basta?

[oak]

47 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Basta?

 

Chega!

[rex]

6 hours ago, Daemon said:

Perhaps that's enough?

 

☮️

 

With your Socratic questioning inviting clarification it’s been a good exchange! Unless either of us come up with anything else this has run its natural course for now. Until the next time then : )

[Daemon]

It's been an unexpected and thought-provoking pleasure for me Rex and I've learned much in the process. I'll look forward to expanding my horizons in your company again should the opportunity arise.

 

☮️