Can We Know Truth?

[Stosh]

22 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

I see Stosh just solved the fundamental problem of quantum mechanics!

 

Now go and collect your Nobel Prize.

 I like the idea, but its too late now, others already pointed out the flaws in the argument.. bunked it. 

Actually the fundemental problem with q mech , is that the investigators have no idea what is really going on , they just make the math work and postulate fantastic connections that make no sense. I saw one guy solve how the universe came into being ,looking at his shampoo bottle ,, , before this one was here  , there were two others and where they bumped into one another they had a baby ,,

brilliant ! 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Stosh

[wandelaar]

32 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Actually the fundemental problem with q mech , is that the investigators have no idea what is really going on , they just make the math work and postulate fantastic connections that make no sense.

 

Yes - there are hundreds of interpretations of QM! But the experiments are getting smarter and more precise lately, so maybe we will get an idea of what is really going on after all.

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

Well , answer me this first, Is the cat in the box or are these hypothetical possibilities?

There is a real cat in a real box or there is not a real cat in a real box. I'm not trying to be cute here. It's a simple yes/no proposition.

[Stosh]

4 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

There is a real cat in a real box or there is not a real cat in a real box. I'm not trying to be cute here. It's a simple yes/no proposition.

Fine, but you still need to choose the situation being discussed. Youre still trying to leave the thing indeterminate , like math Or our knowlege may be. But the cat is not indeterminatedly quasi material. 

[Lost in Translation]

4 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Fine, but you still need to choose the situation being discussed. Youre still trying to leave the thing indeterminate , like math Or our knowlege may be. But the cat is not indeterminatedly quasi material. 

 

I am not. You are reading too much into this. The box can be made of clear glass if you like. You can see the cat if there is one. I'm not speaking in hypothetical quantum terms.

[Stosh]

19 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Yes - there are hundreds of interpretations of QM! But the experiments are getting smarter and more precise lately, so maybe we will get an idea of what is really going on after all.

That will be helpful if it comes about, but in the mean time we have to deal with the backwards guessing game , take it with a mature grain of salt ,and make diapproving faces of bombastic claims.

[Stosh]

1 minute ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I am not. You are reading too much into this. The box can be made of clear glass if you like. You can see the cat if there is one. I'm not speaking in hypothetical quantum terms.

Fine ,prove me wrong, pick one, in or out. 

[Lost in Translation]

1 minute ago, Stosh said:

Fine ,prove me wrong, pick one, in or out. 

 

Why are we arguing?

 

5 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

How can every truth be true? Let's posit the following two assertions: 

 

1) Inside the box there is a cat.

2) Inside the box there is not a cat.

 

If 1 is true then 2 is not true.

If 2 is true then 1 is not true.

If 1 is false then 2 might also be false. (Scratch this third line for now. We'll need a less blunt example in order to go there)

 

Under no circumstances can both 1 and 2 be true at the same time.

 

I chose in. The cat is in the box.

 

Item #1 is a true statement. Therefore item #2 is a false statement.

 

#1 and #2 cannot both be true at the same time.

 

[Stosh]

23 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Why are we arguing?

 

 

I chose in. The cat is in the box.

 

Item #1 is a true statement. Therefore item #2 is a false statement.

 

#1 and #2 cannot both be true at the same time.

 

Agreed. 

Now for the claim that the truth is always true ... well its true the cat is in the box. And if you want to disprove my claim you need to show how its true at the same time that the cat is not in the box. Right?

 

[Lost in Translation]

3 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Agreed. 

Now for the claim that the truth is always true ... well its true the cat is in the box. And if you want to disprove my claim you need to show how its true at the same time that the cat is not in the box. Right?

 

That is correct. Here and now the cat IS in the box. (It's a nice box with glass walls. The cat has food and water and toys and is sleeping soundly). How can one prove that the cat is both IN the box and the cat is NOT IN the box at this same time and place? One obviously cannot therefore only one statement of the two can be true.

 

I think you had believed I was discussing a Shroedinger's cat kind of quantum hypothesis earlier. That is partially my fault since I should not have chosen a cat in a box. I did not mean to be leading in my question.

 

[Stosh]

Great ze problim she is sol ved ! 

As Clouseau likes to say . ✌✌

[Zen Pig]

The whole idea behind the mind experiment, or "gedankenexperiments", of Shroedinger's cat ,  was that in the quantum state the cat is Both alive and dead at the same time.  much like the light slit experiment, where light can be Both a wave and particle at the same time, and has been demonstrated and reproduced in labs many times.  So can something be both "real and un-real " , or True and False at the same time?  This is an ancient question, and certainly not of modern making.  How or Why does it happen, (or not happen), haven't a clue.  But then again, we are socialized to believe in western reductionist materialism.  can't help it.  the best I have ever done, was drill little holes in my belief box, so I could glimpse the bigger picture.

[Marblehead]

No, the cat is not both dead and alive.  It is either dead or alive.  We will not know until we open the box.  Probabilities are infinite.

 

And yeah, the particle and the wave.  One particle exists.  It can be in only one place at any given time.  A series of particles may or may not create a wave.  One particle cannot be a wave.

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

"Spooky stuff at a distance" is nothing more than stuff happening that we yet do not understand.  No magic, no miracles.

 

[Lost in Translation]

2 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

"Spooky stuff at a distance" is nothing more than stuff happening that we yet do not understand.  No magic, no miracles.

 

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." --Arthur C. Clarke

 

"Any magic is explainable with sufficiently advanced technology." --Lost in Translation

[Marblehead]

Why even consider magic?  I just say, "I don't know."  Sometimes I'll add "but I'll find out."

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Why even consider magic?  I just say, "I don't know."  Sometimes I'll add "but I'll find out."

 

 

A reason to considered 'magic'  is to find out what we dont know , how some things effect others without us being to able to  sense  how they did it .

 

Of course this depends on how one defines  magic , I have a  specific meaning in mind.   Sometimes 'magic; can go by other names eg. magnetism or   'colour theory' , ie, the  'magic is undiscovered science' idea ;   magic is an overall term for things that do not have a scientific name yet, or maybe never will .

 

I think the most apt use of the term  magic  is in dealing with our psyche and unconscious; areas we know little about 'scientifically' but know a fair bit about how to manage and 'drive' them using 'magical technologies' .  However,  ARL *  may now be approaching that area  ? 

 

*      https://www.bcs.org/content/conWebDoc/53634

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

I can't and won't argue against anyone else's use of the word or concept of magic.  There are too many definitions of the word to even consider each one.

 

Again, I have no problem stating that I do not know how something happened.  Instead of "It happened magically."

 

 

[Lost in Translation]

4 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I have no problem stating that I do not know how something happened.  Instead of "It happened magically."

 

 

[Everything]

21 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Let's make a more subtle example.

 

1) Vanilla ice cream is the most popular ice cream in the world.

2) Chocolate ice cream is the most popular ice cream in the world.

 

In the English language "most" is a superlative, so "most popular" means "nothing more popular."

 

If 1 is true then 2 is false.

If 2 is true then 1 is false.

If 1 is false then 2 might also be false. (e.g. Strawberry might be most popular)

If 2 is false then 1 might also be false. (e.g. Mint might be most popular)

 

So we see it's possible for both 1 and 2 to be false, but it is not possible for both 1 and 2 to be true.

Well in politics often two candidates are equally popular. So I would say it's actually more often the case that both 1 and 2 is true. The balance is always pretty much very high frequency and stable and almost perfect. Sure you can see some slight differences in popularity but by the time you pinpoint the difference it has already changed billions of times per second.

But in general, you can see how many many truths exist side by side with absolutely no problem or issue whatsoever.  Very harmoniois even. Trees next to sand, next to dirt, next to grass, next to stones, next to roads, next to people, next to birds, next to yellow clothing, next to airplances, next to clouds, next to roof of buildings, you name it. As many words in the dictionary as you can imagine and even all the new words that have yet to be made eternally more and more and more, all into non auditory conscious telempathic communication of thought forms beyond the language of sound and voice.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Everything

[Everything]

16 hours ago, Marblehead said:

No, the cat is not both dead and alive.  It is either dead or alive.  We will not know until we open the box.  Probabilities are infinite.

 

And yeah, the particle and the wave.  One particle exists.  It can be in only one place at any given time.  A series of particles may or may not create a wave.  One particle cannot be a wave.

 

 

 

Yet here we talk seperated by oceans. And time. So each second there are 5 billion universe passing by all around you. And days from now, you can still read this. So how many universes did you travel to create this conversation. The question is not what is possible. The question is, what do you want to be possible? And why.

I want the cat to never die. Why?

Because then we can all live eternally and forever expand our eternal value. Why?

Wanna be free and live without worry. Why?

Then I can just enjoy my experience. Why?

Then I am confident and just do whatever I want and know it is all alright! Why?

Because I like to be fully who I am my true self and be loved for it and know everything is perfect and blessed! Why?

Because I like that experience. Why?

Because everything goes well in that experience. Why?

Because it's all perfect and eternally deserving. Why do you like that?

Because then all is well. Why do you want that?

Because it is so easy and relaxed and it feels so good. Why do you want that?

Because then I am happy. Why do you want that?

It feels good to feel good. Why?

Because it feels so good!

 

Then you understand you value the cat and it's dying as being perfect. And that one day you will to join the cat but in your own unique way. And nothing will be less than perfect when that does happen. There will be no "hey why did you leave me so early!" or judgement. You leave all of that here. With your body. Because you don't need it anymore. You are so ready for the new experience. You accept the perfection of the physical world expression and you can still be yourself, without the need to change the physical world. You can experience anything you wish, without feeling the need to limit yourself to a physical shape or form, because there is always more and better and more now. And now. And more fun. And more eagerness for more new now joy.

 

Not trying to justify any preference, just reaching the core essence of all life force. We live here for the fun of being in the moment. And when the next moment comes, we need no validation from anyone to allow ourselves to already be in the next new now moment. The cat doesn't need it. So maybe we shoulden't need it either.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Everything

[Everything]

7 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I can't and won't argue against anyone else's use of the word or concept of magic.  There are too many definitions of the word to even consider each one.

 

Again, I have no problem stating that I do not know how something happened.  Instead of "It happened magically."

 

 

We can always understand what has happened. But if we feel what is actually happening right now, then we can understand what will happen. And if you can change the way you feel, then you can change what will happen. And then you will live the natural "magical" experience that is nature. Remembering who it is you truely are as an eternally worthy being.

And the judgement of others in the form of jealousy, is what then creates terms such as "magic" and "witches" "oddities". But those people who judge, will always be the strange ones. They will always be the ones who are not understood. They will always be the ones who are alone. Even when millions of people surround them, their judgement does not allow them to experience any true connection with the people around them. And so they eventually give up and let go of the need judge. When they feel safe. When they feel good. And then they allow themselves to experience who it is they really are and in being who it is they really are, they experience their true relationship with those around them. Evolving in ever miraculous ways. In wonderful ways. In worthy ways. In blessed ways.

[Marblehead]

Sure, some suggest that intelligent human life on this planet is a miracle.  Sure, it is something special.  Did it require any miracles for it to happen?

 

[Everything]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Sure, some suggest that intelligent human life on this planet is a miracle.  Sure, it is something special.  Did it require any miracles for it to happen?

 

That is a good question. Let me think about this... Did the universe explode into all that we are? Poofgggg... Mind blown. Maybe we are special

Omg guys. We are special.

I think I am allowed to eat icecream.

And I know I am able to write this.

So maybe I wanna write poop.

Then oh sht. I wrote poop. 

Oh fking hell. There goes our specialness... Down the drain! All down into the toilet...

Hhhh... Atleast we got a toilet. Right? OH WONDERFUL. NO TOILET...

OK GUYS. We are all poop.

Now what?

It's not that bad to be a poop. I can live with this.

There are still things I can do, that I enjoy.

I still have my freedom to do what I wanna do right now in this moment. That's more than enough. I have no need to live anywhere else anyway. So I'm pretty sure I can use this freedom in my now moment to ongoingly enjoy my life more and more. Even the smallest of freedom, is still freedom. And every freedom that is used, becomes more freedom.

So all I need to do is enjoy my life and the freedom that I already have and then I will also thus expand my ability to enjoy my life. It is like a good habbit.

And one good habbit, paves the way for the next, and the next, and the next. Untill, the unimaginable happens.

And we all appreciate the first step we took that led to all of that. We always do. And how easy the first step was. And how enjoyable. And how it all became better from there on. Cause we trusted that joy, no matter how irrelevant or small it may had seemed at the time. We just went with it, and so it went with us aswell. And it became more and more. In a very natural way on a very natural, easy, and effortless path of less resistance. And how do we know the path of less resistance? It feels better. So we easily go with it and enjoy our experience as we do. Super natural. It is super natural! Super super super, natural. Relaxed. Effortless. Ease. Super bombasticking fantastic my friends.

If nature errupts lightning down the path of least resistance, so why not do we. We have all that we need in our mind to get the best out of each moment. Naturally. Easily. And effortlessly. Cause our mind is like that lightning. That thunder of divine revelation. It's who we are and what we are made of. It's what is the divine spark of our awareness. It's the lightning bulb of revelation. How each moments brings to us new and more ability to enjoy the moment. All by itself. Don't really have to do much in order to allow ourself to feel and be inspired.

Does lightning try to strike. It just can't help but to strike, because it feels so good! It can't help it. And so I can't help but to feel so good. Cause I am lightning. We are all part of this miraculous nature we see around us. We are all made of it. We are the galaxies at the furthest most specific shape. We are the highest of resolutions of all of that which the galaxy is. We are the most special physical expression in all of the universe. All that we have ever been is focused right here and now inside of you, looking at everything you are looking at.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Everything

[Marblehead]

Well, you used the word "natural" often.   That might be telling us something.