Can We Know Truth?

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

The internet certainly can be a big help in learning about all sorts of things, but you have to be very selective or else it will turn into an enormous waste of time.

 

 

[Marblehead]

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 7:27 AM, Apech said:

 

 

How do you know that?

Just trust him on that one.

 

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

I very much doubt that everything in life happens for a reason, and  certainly not for helping individual people in their (spiritual) development. How could that even be so, when there are so many people who would all have there lessons presented to them and only one world in which all those lessons would have to happen at the same time? Lao tzu's saying of the straw dogs seems more appropriate. 

 

The internet certainly can be a big help in learning about all sorts of things, but you have to be very selective or else it will turn into an enormous waste of time.

 

WoW!  I try to get a little spiritual with you and you just send me back to my Materialistic philosophy.

 

Cause and effect is still a valid concept though.

 

[Everything]

6 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

I very much doubt that everything in life happens for a reason, and  certainly not for helping individual people in their (spiritual) development. How could that even be so, when there are so many people who would all have there lessons presented to them and only one world in which all those lessons would have to happen at the same time? Lao tzu's saying of the straw dogs seems more appropriate. 

 

The internet certainly can be a big help in learning about all sorts of things, but you have to be very selective or else it will turn into an enormous waste of time.

 

It is good to acknowledge that this is not part of your path, but at the same time, it does not mean that all people are on the same path. Many people on this planet experience tremendous value and meaning and purpose in life, and your inability to see the value of your own unique physical life experiences is also not only unique to you. But what you do want, is to learn how to begin to see the value of who it is you truely are, and the true value that is and always has been you and always will be you in an ever expanding way. And you sort of wanna scream, THEN SHOW ME!!! And I can't. Only you can show it to youself. And it may take a while. Infact, it may take forever. And when you make peace with the eternity of that which is you, and allow the natural unfoldment of your life experiences to take place, and ease into the experience of easing into the every new and fresh now moment, not insisting the accomplishment of anything but feeling the appreciation for the present moment and feeling complete in the allowing of the perfection of the ever unfoldment of your eternal nature and journey, then you sort of relax... Not try so hard, and allow yourself to finally be with all that you have actually done, and appreciating the succes of all of that you have become and all that led to the becoming of that which you now are. And realizing all that you are actually capable of doing in every new now moment. And enjoying the natural feeling of freedom that comes with that ability to allow yourself to simply be who it is you truely are. In full alignment and harmony with your true eternal nature as an infinitely and eternally worthy being. So you relax and allow yourself to be in the moment. And allow yourself to be the freedom that enjoys to be, do or think what is you enjoy in every new now moment. And if something bad happens then it is no big deal! Because you are eternal. There is no worry of endedness. There is no way that you can get things wrong. There is absolutely nothing serious going on at all. It's all for the purpose of fun and enjoyment. And expressing our freedom in all the ways we want to. And trusting in the new experiences that come with that, forever serving us and supporting us in the fulfillment of all that we may desire. And valueing each experience as such.

[Everything]

3 hours ago, Marblehead said:

WoW!  I try to get a little spiritual with you and you just send me back to my Materialistic philosophy.

 

Cause and effect is still a valid concept though.

 

There is nothing less spiritual about being a physical human being in a physical human body. Meditation is not the only way to allow yourself to be who it is you truely are. Sure it is a great way and a very valuable way and a very easy way, and a very very effective way, but many people find many different ways to allow themselves to be who it is they really are and find the peace with who it is they really in many different ways. No one way is the right way for everyone.  One can even chop wood and carry water, and be completely present with all of which that is and fully enjoy the experience of all of that to the best of your ability in the best way you know how. Some people run and calm the waters of their mind in their experience of freedom and running and feeling free and feeling so alive, to allow for the clarity of mind to see who it is they really are and all they really want to be in life. Some people have sex and come to the full realization of all the satisfaction they are capable focus themselves into and being and the full appreciation of all of that and the immense pleasure of that which they are truely capable of experiencing and coming to tremendous peace and relief of fully allowing themselves to be all that they truely are in this way. And some people like to listen to music that moves them in all the right ways and allows them truely feel all the intense and amazing value they feel they truely are in their experience of truely allowing all of who they really are to come out and play and be free and extatically experience the full worth and meaning and experience of life's true meaning for them in that moment of being completely and feeling completely inspired by the experience of the creation of another's artistic expression and their feeling of deep intense connection with the artist at the moment of their creating.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Everything

[wandelaar]

Still wondering why there is one Bum (whitesilk) whom I am not allowed to ignore: is this a problem with the forum software, or is there a special reason having to do with who whitesilk is?

[Everything]

3 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Still wondering why there is one Bum (whitesilk) whom I am not allowed to ignore: is this a problem with the forum software, or is there a special reason having to do with who whitesilk is?

What does the word Whitesilk mean to you?

Comfort? Ease? Rest? Well-Being. Care.

Ease, smooth sailing. Freedom. Well-being.

What does it mean to you?

[Mudfoot]

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Still wondering why there is one Bum (whitesilk) whom I am not allowed to ignore: is this a problem with the forum software, or is there a special reason having to do with who whitesilk is?

If whitesilk is a secret moderator, you will fail to ignore, mods are not to be ignored. 

[wandelaar]

1 minute ago, Mudfoot said:

If whitesilk is a secret moderator, you will fail to ignore, mods are not to be ignored. 

 

Yes - that would be a good reason. I can live with that. But why would a moderator have to operate secretly?

[whitesilk]

17 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

George Lochak, that the reason that paranormal phenomenon are rejected as "woo woo" is because scientists are afraid to lose their funding

 

without trouble, I hope:

 

Can anyone explain this:

 

output.mp4

 

? In my opinion, embracing would be a greater path.

 

[Mudfoot]

1 minute ago, wandelaar said:

 

Yes - that would be a good reason. I can live with that. But why would a moderator have to operate secretly?

It's a ninja. 

[whitesilk]

4 hours ago, Everything said:

What does the word Whitesilk mean to you?

 

literally, the first time that I had acupuncture, the electronic translation device told me, 'white beau silk mixes white sugar'.

[Mudfoot]

Or a bot. 

[Lost in Translation]

3 minutes ago, whitesilk said:

 

without trouble, I hope:

 

Can anyone explain this:

 

output.mp4

 

? In my opinion, embracing would be a greater path.

 

 

Forty-five seconds of my life that I can never get back...

 

Seriously, what is the question? Atmospheric pressure at sea level is 14.7 pounds per square inch. By pressing a finger against the coin you can create a temporary area of low pressure. By quickly raising your finger the air pressure under the coin pushes it up. It's the same reason why glass or stone coasters raise up along with a glass of ice water on a hot day.

[Marblehead]

36 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

If whitesilk is a secret moderator, you will fail to ignore, mods are not to be ignored. 

That never came to my mind for whatever the reason.  It's true.  Cannot ignore Admins or Mods.

 

[Marblehead]

33 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Yes - that would be a good reason. I can live with that. But why would a moderator have to operate secretly?

Admins sometimes do.

 

[whitesilk]

11 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

low pressure

 

11 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

14.7 pounds per square inch

 

Isn't that pushing the nickel down?

 

[whitesilk]

18 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

With noncommutative phase logic at "zero" time there is always-already "non-locality" as Professor Basil J. Hiley points out and Hiley emphasizes this non-locality is still ignored by almost all quantum physicists

 

 

The commutative property states that changing the order does not change the result. Without a time variable, phase would not exist. I guess I am confused.

[voidisyinyang]

27 minutes ago, whitesilk said:

 

 

The commutative property states that changing the order does not change the result. Without a time variable, phase would not exist. I guess I am confused.

Excellent point. So the phase is not classical and the phase is noncommutative, so changing the order of measurement changes the result. At time zero, there is an unbounded non-local quantum phase with the future and the past overlapping. This can be considered a synchronous nonlinear resonance, and it is not dependent on an observer (light) nor any boundary conditions. So as Alain Connes describes - at a "zero" point in spacetime - it emerges from a pre-geometric time-frequency dynamic, based on a multiplication of the frequency. He states music theory is the formal language to explain this noncommutative phase. I also discovered this on my own. So consider "yang qi" (to keep on the subject of Daoism). Yang qi is 2/3 in Daoism but in terms of phase - it is both C to F (subharmonic) and C to G (overtone harmonic). So in terms of Western science we measure the phase visually and so we see a change in both amplitude and frequency.

 

So a different phase relationship by shifting the 2nd and 3rd harmonic. But as Vitus  Droscher points out in his book, "Magic of the Senses," the ear does not hear the difference! The visual change is still the same "pitch" as the Perfect Fifth music interval - either 2/3 or 3/2.

 

So what this means is that yang qi is the reversal of yin qi - so that C to F as 4/3 is reversed to 2/3 as C to F (subharmonic) and so alchemically the yang qi resonates from the yin qi as the Taiji. And as the subharmonic the phase "boundary" is then the 3 as 2/3 which is doubled as 4/3 such that 3 is the new "1" - since 4/3 can not be a harmonic overtone, as 3 in the denominator is not a natural resonance of the 1 harmonic (as an octave).

 

So Connes explains this - I will look up the quote...

 

Quote

“And it could be formalized by music....What is a parameter? The parameter is time....the amazing fact is that exactly time is emerging from the noncommutivity....the origin of time is probably quantum mechanical and its coming from the fact that thanks to noncommutativity ONLY that one can write the time evolution of a system,.....You really are in a different world, then the world of geometry, which we all like because we all like to draw pictures and think in a geometric manner. So what I am going to explain is a very strange way to think about geometry, from this point of view, which is quite different from drawing on the blackboard.... However what emerges, if you know not only the various frequencies but also the chords, and the point will correspond to the chords.....a "universal scaling system," manifests itself in acoustic systems....There is something even simpler which is what happens with a single string. If we take the most elementary shape, which is the interval, what will happen when we make it vibrate, of course with the end points fixed, it will vibrate in a very extremely simple manner. Each of these will produce a sound... When talking about a string it's a straight line. ... They are isospectral [frequency with the same area], even though they are geometrically different....when you take the square root of these numbers, they  are the same [frequency] spectrum but they don't have the same chords.

 

Edited September 28, 2018 by voidisyinyang

[whitesilk]

6 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

C to F (subharmonic) and C to G (overtone harmonic).

great stuff for me Thanks! Still somewhat confused. I'm trying to study Ptolemy as well, and confusing my way though his measurements.

 

So to paraphrase your past post, I would write that the observable differences between harmonic yin and yang qi results from summing a double third.

[voidisyinyang]

13 minutes ago, whitesilk said:

great stuff for me Thanks! Still somewhat confused. I'm trying to study Ptolemy as well, and confusing my way though his measurements.

 

So to paraphrase your past post, I would write that the observable differences between harmonic yin and yang qi results from summing a double third.

I just edited in the Connes quote.

 

To continue....re: ur question:

 

Quote

 There are three types of notes which are different....What do I mean by possible chords? I mean now that you have eigenfunctions, coming from the drawing of the disk or square [triangle, etc.]. If you look at a point and you look at the eigenfunction, you can look at the value of the eigenfunction at this point.... The point [zero in space] makes a chord between two notes. When the value of the two eigenfunctions [2, 3, infinity] will be non-zero. ...The corresponding eigenfunctions only leave you one of the two pieces; so if there is is one in the piece, it is zero on the other piece and if it is non-zero in the piece it is zero there.

So in regards to Kepler - the "point" in space is, as per Connes, the product of a non-local triple spectral frequency/time resonance.

So there is no real "zero" point in spacetime but instead an infinite non-commutative dynamic of correlations based on the non-local noncommutative phase.

So to convert it to a matter point requires converting it to the commutative property.

So in terms of music theory - this means that 2/3 is NOT allowed for 3/2 as C to G to exist. the 2/3 HAS to be doubled symmetrically to 4/3 as C to F. This was first done by Philolaus and then formalized by Archytas as a logical axiom, and promoted by Plato as symmetric math.

So then the non-commutative non-local time-frequency phase is covered up in order to create the commutative point. Mass actually is frequency energy.

So at a "zero rest point" of matter there is STILL a motion of relative mass that is noncommutative phase, from the future, as virtual matter.

Quote

Our notion of point will emerge, a correlation of different frequencies...The space will be given by the scale. The music of the space will be done by the various chords. It's not enough to give the scale. You also have to give which chords are possible.....The only thing that matters when you have these sequences are the ratios, the ear is only sensitive to the ratio, not to the additivity...multiplication by 2 of the frequency and transposition, normally the simplest way is multiplication by 3.

So the logarithms as commutative math are additivity. But the non-commutative phase is multiplication. What symmetric "continuum" math did was convert an open phase of time into a closed geometry.

Kepler was against the "closed form" of the Golden Ratio for this particular reason. He accepted that number was male and female, just as Connes has proven that one plus one does not equal 2. This is similar to Louis Kauffman's proof of time being noncommutative. So for the "closed form" of the Golden Ratio the order of infinity had to be switched around from A is to B as  B is to (A plus B ) to the final part as (A minus B ) in order to have a zero form solution.

 

Quote

the observable differences between harmonic yin and yang qi results from summing a double third.

 

So the Single Perfect Yang is also the Yuan Qi because again 2/3 and 3/2 is HEARD or logically inferred as both the Perfect Fifth and both are yang even though 2/3 is C to F that is doubled as the yin qi of 4/3.

Edited September 28, 2018 by voidisyinyang

[whitesilk]

Relative to the topic in this thread, Ptolemy disproved ancient Greek musical systems in his 'harmonics' ~ 200 A.D. Yet Ptolemy did no understand how to create a proper answer. He knew that the musical system was flawed from this measurements, yet did not know why. Then shortly thereafter died, and left 'harmonics' unfinished. (for the human nature enthusiasts on the forum that might agree not to disagree with ancient Greeks).

 

So from what I gather about truth and harmony and modern physics, could we know (and also admit) there is an error with our perception's because we impose a language of mathematics to describe them and communicate various experiences and natural phoneme?

 

 

Edited September 28, 2018 by whitesilk
appendum

[voidisyinyang]

2 minutes ago, whitesilk said:

Relative to the topic in this thread, Ptolemy disproved ancient Greek musical systems in his 'harmonics' ~ 200 A.D. Yet Ptolemy did no understand how to create a proper answer. He knew that the musical system was flawed from this measurements, yet did not know why.

 

So from what I gather about truth and harmony and modern physics, could we know (and also admit) there is an error with our perception's because we impose a language of mathematics to describe them and communicate various experiences and natural phoneme?

 

 

Yes this is what math professor Luigi Borzacchini has researched in great detail.

Quote

The 'demusicalization' of the theory of proportions by Plato is shocking....If we consider the likely Pythagorean and Philolaic origin of the Timaeus this 'removal' seems really astonishing!....Why these silences? And why this sudden and radical change? Why the Pythagoreans' silence? The "secret of the sect"? ....all the more because a purely negative result (speaking about "something which is not") had to fall under the blows of the negative judgement paradox. Such paradox forbade speaking about what is not....But a statement about what is not is about nothing and hence impossible....The refusal of speaking of "what is not" ...was the reason why musical incommensurability fell into oblivion...."However, I think I can prove that in the Platonic Academy there was a trace of this earlier approach, with a tight connection between music, numerical means and similarity, and without any reference to geometric figures, such as square or pentagon." .....Continuum is not only inexpressible, but also external to the knowledge of reality....We can suppose that the Quadrivium in its earlier Pythagorean version did not know any discrete/continuous opposition....These remarks raise the question of the difference between the ancient Pythagorean ‘musical’ perception as displayed in the Pythagorean idea of ‘linear number’ in Boethius [Philolaus] or in Nicomachus, and the modern ‘geometrical’ perception of the linear numerical magnitudes.   The Epinomis, authored by the Plato student Philippus of Opus, a member of the Academy, approximately contemporary of Aristotle and Eudoxus:  Quote Thus the first <analogy> [proportion] is of the double in point of number, passing from one to two in order of counting, and that which is according to power is double; that which passes to the solid and tangible is likewise again double, having proceeded from one to eight; but that of the double has a mean, as much more than the less as it is less than the greater, while its other mean exceeds and is exceeded by the same portion of the extremes themselves. Between six and twelve comes the whole-and-a-half (9=6+3) and whole-and-a-third (8=6+2): All of them, however, can not avoid the occurrences of the never ending paradox connected to the syntactic paradigm. Below the surface of the antinomical form, we can maybe reveal the deep 'preestablished disharmony' of the link between human knowledge and reality." Math Professor Emeritus Luigi Borzacchini (origin of above 9th Century Boethius image from Philolaus (5th century BCE)) "In modern physics, as in pre-Socratic philosophy, the observer is a mouse in the cheese: he cannot be indifferent....After a few centuries of harmony and sleeping of paradoxes, again the ever-lasting antinomies and pre-established disharmony frame our knowledge enterprise."       Hence Arithmetic is the source of that preestablished harmony between reality      and language that we can not not believe after almost four centuries of astonishing      achievements, but we must even say that, neither tendentially, syntactic      representation can thoroughly mirror reality, become someway iconic. And this      because it is marked in its basic principles with a preestablished disharmony, that      is even its hidden evolutive principle.      It plays the role of source of never ending paradoxes well recognizable ever since      the beginning of formal thinking. Negation, truth and being ground an      antinomical argument, from the “negative judgement paradox” (impossibility of      asserting falsity), through the “liar paradox” (contradictory nature of self-asserting      falsity), to set-theoretical paradoxes and to Gödel's and Tarski's limitative      theorems.  

   Luigi Borzacchini, THE SOPHIST. GENESIS OF FORMAL THINKING IN GREEK PHILOSOPHY AND  MATHEMATICS. (Dipartimento di Matematica, Università di Bari).

http://www.academia.edu/16496242/Incommensurability_Music_and_Continuum_a_cognitive_approach._Arch._For_History_of_Exact_Sciences_61_2007_273-302._http_dx.doi.org_10.1007_s00407-007-0125-0

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, whitesilk said:

 

 

The commutative property states that changing the order does not change the result. Without a time variable, phase would not exist. I guess I am confused.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1303.6057

So I actually got an email reply from Professor Hiley this morning. This link is his overview of his noncommutative phase analysis. So similar to Connes - the noncommutative phase is a "pre-space" at zero time - before the particle exists. So the future and past have to be analyzed at the same time but the scientist is inherently part of the experiment, as all "forms" are part of the non-local process.

Keep in mind - I'm not a scientist - and so I am just using science as a metaphor to explain the Daoist alchemy training. So the scientists are trying to grapple with the fact that Western symmetric math has been wrong - not to mention the ecological and social justice crisis it has created. So noncommutative geometry is just in its early stages...and whether it can deal with 2000 years of "entropy" from Western symmetric math, is another story.

 

 

[whitesilk]

3 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

2000 years of "entropy" from Western symmetric math, is another story

ha, ha, and another laugh. Serious study of the math our ancestors of western lineage have proposed at times, leads me to believe more in simplicity than the complexity we create. Of course, a simple farmer now sits in a combine rather than using a scythe. I guess, truth is use to me.