The Tao of disappointment

[Ilovecoffee]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

@ Ilovecoffee

 

If you go to a magic show where all kind of impossible things seem to happen, you don't believe they actually happen. But why not? Do you know what tricks are used? Probably not. Still you don't believe the things that seem to happen are actually happening. Now the only difference with a paranormal experiment that doesn't rule out fraud is that in case of the magic show no claim is made that the phenomena are real, but in case of your paranormal experiment that doesn't rule out fraud the phenomenon is claimed to be real (that is: not produced by means of tricks). And now you do believe the phenomenon to be real. But why? Because you now know that probably no tricks were used? No - that's not the case: the precautions were such that tricks were still possible. The reason can only be that you already believe the phenomenon in the video could just as well be real and that precautions against fraud thus don't need to be that stringent.

 

But I have delved deep in parapsychology and had many discussions, so I know they usually don't lead anywhere. I have made my point, and I will leave it at that. 

 

 

"tricks were still possible."

 

A skeptic can always invent creative reasons on why the evidence must be fake.  No amount of objective video evidence taken from satellites will EVER convince a flat earth theorist that the earth is spherical.  To the flat earth theorist, it's all a hoax to deceive them. "Proof" only "proves" something if the other party accepts it.   If the other party refuses to accept it then nothing is proven (at least to them).   We can only do the best we can do.

 

Short of x-raying the subject, what you saw is as good as it is going to get. A team of scientists and medical doctors stripped him to his undershirt and underwear, checked him for devices with a metal detector,  got a demonstration inside, moved outside for a second demonstration, and went to a location they chose for a third demonstration.

 

I believe that they did their best to rule out devices in his body, and on his property.  If you choose to believe they missed something or were in on the hoax that certainly is your prerogative.

 

"you do believe the phenomenon to be real. But why?"

 

I am a freethinker.  I base my beliefs on the best objective evidence available to me, as well as my own first-hand observations.  We can only provide the evidence we have and encourage others to come see for themselves.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Ilovecoffee

[Wu Ming Jen]

The way of disappointment is expectations and the preconceived thoughts that go along with it.

 

The beautiful thing about the Tao of Chi is that it is also the invisible world we live in.  Tao and Chi can not be seen it is there but not there. Our whole existence is there but not there, being, non being, existent, nonexistent. 

 

To see Tao maybe try not to limit  our views.  We all experience the formless energies around us, we can feel it. Tao makes a direct impact on our survival .

 

We can harmonize with the internal and external energies in and around us by steering thru our space and our time. We are traveling directly to the unknown the homeland of nothing whatsoever, exactly where we came from. We do not need to leave our true home while we are alive in this body.

 

We spend a lot of time on things that perish and very little time investing in the eternal world which is us .The true self comes back home.

 

The value of Tao  cannot be measured because it is also what makes things able to be measured. 

[Mudfoot]

I see that Coffee is trying to make this into a MP thread. Last summer that one made 1000+ posts. 

 

Although that was entertaining, I'm going to pass this one. 

Maybe someone else will come out to play? 

[Ilovecoffee]

28 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

I see that Coffee is trying to make this into a MP thread. Last summer that one made 1000+ posts. 

 

Although that was entertaining, I'm going to pass this one. 

Maybe someone else will come out to play? 

 

No, that is not my intention.  I am just politely standing my ground when attacked. Stewart sounded as if he was frustrated finding no real sages only new age mumbo-jumbo.  He sounds like reached the point of giving up on all this.  I relate to that frustration one hundred percent, and I thought maybe he might be interested in something real.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Ilovecoffee

[moment]

13 hours ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

How would you recognize a Tao Sage if you met one?

 

I contend that you could recognize such a "Sage" by them demonstrating abilities before scientists and medical doctors to rule out fraud.

And I contend that that would be only one of many types.  There is way too much effort to create form, function, even a criteria. That is not the way of the Tao.  The only sure way to stay on the path is through meditation.  Each of us must find the meditation that is best for us and we must be alert to, the subtle changes in, the needs of our meditations as we grow older. Whispers of the Heart, the Spirit, our very blood, when understood correctly, are the best teachers we will ever have.

Edited May 13, 2018 by moment

[Mudfoot]

20 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I was expecting at least one disagreement from our membership.  That is part of internal alchemy, after all.

 

Isn't it Liu I-Ming that though that daoism was in a sorry state, people studying Nei Dan classics but ending up wanking off or moving a bit of Qi instead of realizing the Dao? 

 

He put it slightly different, being a scholar, but if you cut to the chase that seemed to be his main point. 

 

And those practitioners he critisized had access to teachers, didn't have to rely on translations, and still ended up by a side door. 

 

Shows how difficult this area is. 😁 

[Starjumper]

8 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

I see that Coffee is trying to make this into a MP thread. Last summer that one made 1000+ posts. 

 

Although that was entertaining, I'm going to pass this one. 

Maybe someone else will come out to play? 

 

He's trying to recruit Wandelaar and any new lurkers, all the rest can smell the stench a mile away.

 

Quote

Oh ya, the only verified sage in the world is this half baked guy who got fired from being master of his school for showing off in public and for teaching a couple of people that he wasn't supposed to ... and no one can go see him or talk to him.

 

They do it because it makes the insane feel powerful.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Starjumper

[Taoist Texts]

54 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

 

 

And those practitioners he critisized had access to teachers

obviously to wrong ones

[wandelaar]

What is a MP thread? 

[Kar3n]

13 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

What is a MP thread? 

Just very long, drawn out arguments discussions about what is and is not objective scientific evidence. 

 

Please do not get sucked into the trap.

 

It's a Mo Pai thread.

[Mudfoot]

1 minute ago, Kar3n said:

 scientific 

Objective. 😁 

[Kar3n]

2 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Objective. 😁 

Yes, yes!

Silly me! 

[wandelaar]

Good that I asked, because my initial guess was that it meant a "million posts tread".

Edited May 13, 2018 by wandelaar

[Starjumper]

5 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Good that I asked, because my initial guess was it meant a "million posts tread".

 

They do turn into that, what with ILovetheSmellofCoffee, who I have on ignore, repeating himself ad nauseum no matter what the argument is focussed on at the moment..

[wandelaar]

Just now, Starjumper said:

They do turn into that, what with ILovetheSmellofCoffee, who I have on ignore, repeating himself ad nauseum no matter what the argument is focussed on at the moment..

 

Good to know! Thanks.

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

Isn't it Liu I-Ming that though that daoism was in a sorry state, people studying Nei Dan classics but ending up wanking off or moving a bit of Qi instead of realizing the Dao? 

 

He put it slightly different, being a scholar, but if you cut to the chase that seemed to be his main point. 

 

And those practitioners he critisized had access to teachers, didn't have to rely on translations, and still ended up by a side door. 

 

Shows how difficult this area is. 😁 

I really can't speak to that as my knowledge of the subject is very poor.

 

But yes, sometimes we get so involved in trying to accomplish something we totally forget or ignore the Way of Dao.

 

[Starjumper]

So, concerning sages, my teacher was a sage.  He was so psychic that he was effectively omniscient.  He also had vast chi power and could do all the 'standard' magic tricks that one would expect from a highest level yogi, but I don't think that is a requirement to be a sage. As I've said before, all wizards are sages, but not all sages are wizards.  In fact he would never make a comment on a philosophical aspect of Taoism unless he was asked, and none of us cared to ask, except for once or twice in eight years.  He would  not answer stupid questions, but sometimes he would answer to something unrelated when asked a stupid question.  What we mainly talked about were aspects of chi kung that pertained to psychic knowing and chi power along with ghost stories and history lessons.  What he offered mainly was deep knowing as to our situation, along with telepathy, speaking to us and offering lessons in dreams.  Since we are dragons most of the lessons that I got in dreams were flying lessons, very interesting stuff along the lines of how to do levitation, with most of the 'levitation' being horizontally rather than vertically.  You can go faster and more easily horizontally than vertically because you aren't fighting gravity.

 

There are some sages here on this forum 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2018 by Starjumper

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

You can go faster and more easily horizontally than vertically because you aren't fighting gravity.

 

There are some sages here on this forum 

 

 

Wait a minute!  Are you sure about that?  Isn't it because you are not being opposed by so much atmosphere?  The gravity effect would remain the same regardless?

 

I can levitate with one foot off the ground.

 

[Starjumper]

25 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Wait a minute!  Are you sure about that?  Isn't it because you are not being opposed by so much atmosphere?  The gravity effect would remain the same regardless?

 

Teacher said that levitation was a waste of energy and useless because it was so slow, that astral projection was almost instant and required much less energy, but that to do astral projection you had to have no negative thoughts or comments for about seven years ... so each day I tell myself: "dang, seven more years to go".

 

In fact, now that I think of it I would say that the method for levitation is quite similar to that of astral projection.

 

The going faster horizontally rather than vertically is simply my own experience in my dream lessons, but here in the realm of matter it does take more energy to go against the gravity gradient (upwards) while it takes no energy to go with the gravity gradient (downwards), or ignoring the gravity gradient (sideways).  Anyway, flying (lucid) dreams are about as much fun as you can have in private in the night time.  In the immaterial spirit realm it shouldn't require much energy to move along like a dragon.  Interestingly, while most dreams are forgotten, the lucid dreams about flying and some other psychic knowings stay sharp in der memory for a long time.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Starjumper

[Marblehead]

Also interesting is that I just posted Section 17:2 of the Chuang Tzu which speaks somewhat to this.

 

[wandelaar]

It takes energy to move against the force of gravity, but if you move perpendicular to the force of gravity it takes no energy (except for overcoming air resistance).

[Starjumper]

Quote

Also interesting is that I just posted Section 17:2 of the Chuang Tzu which speaks somewhat to this.

 

I'm on it.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Starjumper

[Ilovecoffee]

2 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

He's trying to recruit Wandelaar and any new lurkers, all the rest can smell the stench a mile away.

 

 

They do it because it makes the insane feel powerful.

 

I am certainly not interested in recruiting wandelaar, merely I am politely standing my ground when attacked. 

 

We pursue systems with objective evidence gathered with scientists and medical doctors present to at least attempt to rule out fraud. We want a real practice and not more make-believe. This thread started out with Stewart saying he is ready to call it quits, unable to find a true sage, or anything other than new-age nonsense and garbage. I am paraphrasing him but that seems to be the gist of it. That frustration is something our group relates to.

[Kar3n]

17 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

I am certainly not interested in recruiting wandelaar, merely I am politely standing my ground when attacked. 

 

You are not under attack, please create another thread if you wish to speak further on anything other than the OP.

 

Thanks for your cooperation. 

[thelerner]

On 5/11/2018 at 3:46 PM, Stewart said:

I’m about ready to throw in the towel on the Tao.  ..

Recently I purchased a book call “Taoist Meditation” translated by Thomas Cleary and was disappointed at what I read.

Example:

Human life is the ultimate; when the ultimate goes into action it produces positive energy as fire.  Fire is spirit.  When the ultimate becomes quiescent it produces negative energy as water.  Water is vitality.  The fire of spirit and the water of vitality combine subtly and congeal between the two kidneys to constitute the root of original energy.

You would have to search far and wide to find a bigger load of horse-pucky than that.

 

 

back to OP

Horse-pucky or the words of Taoist Sages?  Here's the information about the book (Publishers Weekly) from

"These five Taoist treatises, written from the 7th to the 19th century, offer Chinese sages' thoughts on meditation, "alternative" medicine, body energy, human nature, the martial arts and life and death ("Everyone likes life but not the path of long life. Everyone dislikes death but not the things conducive to death"). The first selection, "Anthology on the Cultivation of Realization," is a vivid assortment of reflections taking up nearly half the book's text; it is long but fascinating. The esoteric "Treatise on Sitting Forgetting" is also a jewel, closing with some fundamental principles of Taoist meditation ("Arrest thoughts as they arise, in order to make your mind peaceful and quiet")"

 

So, what the writer considers BS is from reknown sages.  It's done in the classical poetical, typically hard to understand allegory/5 element theory.  This stuff is hard to understand.  For someone without extensive background it's easily seen as B.S.  but with study and long years of practice you might find deep meaning, that matches your own experiential findings. 

 

There are easier tomes to start with.  Just practicing equanimity, learning to keep a quiet mind, learning to sit in silence.. can be a powerful teacher. 

Edited May 13, 2018 by thelerner