Spirituality and Dao, Chicken and Egg

[Amigo-500]

I have always considered myself a fairly secular thinker, and I even try to approach most of the DDJ through more of a philosophical lens than a religious one. However, I'm noticing a large number of people posting on this forum that seem to carry deep and varied spiritual beliefs. I wonder, am I missing out on some wisdom by failing to open myself fully?


For those of you who are reading this and who consider yourselves to be spiritual, were you spiritual before learning about Daoism?  Has anybody awoken that side of themselves only after reading about the Way? Do you believe that your spirituality informs your innate understanding of Daoism more than would otherwise be possible?

Has anybody else attempted or managed to immerse themselves in Daoist thought without embracing the more esoteric and mystical aspects related to it?  I cannot stop wondering about whether or not notions such as faith and meaning, or even belief in magic, are essential to understanding what I've always interpreted as just a description of the nature of things and the nature of how they should be.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Amigo-500

[Marblehead]

Well Amigo, I am a Philosophical Daoist and I can honestly say that the Religious and Alchemic Daoists here have never given me a hard time about it.

 

I don't feel I am missing anything by not holding to dogma.  I don't even like to say "I believe ..."  I acknowledge (what I consider to be reality). 

 

I have been told by a couple members here that I am likely more of a spiritual person than I admit to.  That is interesting but not all that important.

 

It is my understanding that religion is NOT a prerequisite for spirituality.  And really, Chuang Tzu was a very spiritual and mystic person but he never once spoke of religion.

 

Sure, you will find more to question if you follow any religious or alchemic dogma.  Ask yourself:  Do I need those questions cluttering my mind?  Most of the questions that will arise will be questions without answers so they will only present confusion in your mind.

 

Have fun while on your journey!

 

[Stosh]

A good question.. Is it possible to even embrace things one doesn't really believe?, and if they don't , are they excluded from a wonderful experience? 

I'm thinking no , and possibly yes, in that order. The world is , whatever it is, but the mind can encompass ,.. other than that. 

I dunno if the mostly secular buddhist or christian is getting much out of the casual beliefs. 

Facts of understanding must be put in play. I think its a critical aspect , that if one works things out on a mental level , at some point they have to put that into the forge of practice or it was just , a game of sorts. 

Exercise practice at least has one -actually doing something.

Staring at eyelids , well it passes time ,like watching TV, then that time is gone,, I think far more important is the mind as it behaves during ones active day... though I know people claim otherwise. It may ground them in a view of things, and themselves that is altogether different. 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Stosh

[Limahong]

On 5/15/2018 at 2:37 PM, Amigo-500 said:

Has anybody else attempted or managed to immerse themselves in Daoist thought without embracing the more esoteric and mystical aspects related to it?

 

Hi Amigo-500,

 

To/for me Taoism can be an '...ism' by itself or it can be mixed/matched with other '...ism' s.

 

I have no problem with Taoism thus so long as I keep am open and tolerant mind(set).

 

By itself, I find Taoism to be meaningfully deep when I think of myself as a apple tree basking in sunshine and rain.

 

 

 

 

Welcome to TDB.

 

- LimA

Edited May 19, 2018 by Limahong
Correct errors.

[vonkrankenhaus]

"Tao" is not "mystical".

 

Are subway maps "mystical" or "esoteric"?

 

Tao means "Way".

 

The "Way it goes" - that kind of thing.

 

Tao is not a thing, not physically existing.
It has no birth, no existence, no opposite, and no features.

 

Just like the "way of making sandwiches" does not have any physical characteristics.

 

 

 

 

- VonKrankenhaus

[Limahong]

13 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

Just like the "way of making sandwiches" does not have any physical characteristics.

 

Hi vonkrankenhaus,

 

Everything sandwiched in between yin and yang?

 

For instance - 'chicken and egg' sandwich?

 

 

- LimA

Edited May 19, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[vonkrankenhaus]

1 minute ago, Limahong said:

Everything sandwiched in between yin and yang?

 

Tao produces One.

 

That means, "as it happens, a thing appears".

 

One is a "thing". Before is "no-thing", or "nothing".

 

Only constant is Change.

 

The only way for "nothing" to change is to become "something".

 

The One, a "thing", has YinYang - has "polarity" - an up/down, left/right, beginning/end, and so on.

 

All "thing" have Polarity, or YinYang.

 

Movement between poles of any Polarity, of any "YinYang" - that is "Qi".

 

 

 

 

 

- VonKrankenhaus

[Mudfoot]

On 2018-05-15 at 12:50 PM, Marblehead said:

Well Amigo, I am a Philosophical Daoist and I can honestly say that the Religious and Alchemic Daoists here have never given me a hard time about it.

 

Ehm..., 

That is not true. You just do not have access to that section of TDB where we make fun of you. 😁 

[Marblehead]

Just now, Mudfoot said:

Ehm..., 

That is not true. You just do not have access to that section of TDB where we make fun of you. 😁 

You done good.  Keep it up.

 

[Mudfoot]

On 2018-05-15 at 8:37 AM, Amigo-500 said:

Has anybody else attempted or managed to immerse themselves in Daoist thought without embracing the more esoteric and mystical aspects related to it?  

Thought, yes. 

Daoist experience, well that is another thing. 

 

If you have the view that the major philosophical views of Daoism is based on changes wrought by meditation, then you need to embrace that. 

 

There are probably more views than that, since "daoism" is a large and diverse tradition. 

[thelerner]

Most of my Taoism is asking 'How would nature react?' then going off to ponder and have a drink. 

often i will forget the problem and find out later, low and behold it has solved itself. 

[Marblehead]

Is that like "What would nature do?"

 

[thelerner]

31 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Is that like "What would nature do?"

 

Yes, but someone else already patented WWND. 

[Stosh]

I  gotta admit , i never asked myself that

WWND ! 

Cheers

 

 

 

Oooh, works good.

[thelerner]

2 hours ago, Stosh said:

I  gotta admit , i never asked myself that

WWND !

 

Oooh, works good.

I usually get, slow down, pay attention, find balance. 

[Ilovecoffee]

On 5/15/2018 at 2:37 AM, Amigo-500 said:

I have always considered myself a fairly secular thinker, and I even try to approach most of the DDJ through more of a philosophical lens than a religious one. However, I'm noticing a large number of people posting on this forum that seem to carry deep and varied spiritual beliefs. I wonder, am I missing out on some wisdom by failing to open myself fully?


For those of you who are reading this and who consider yourselves to be spiritual, were you spiritual before learning about Daoism?  Has anybody awoken that side of themselves only after reading about the Way? Do you believe that your spirituality informs your innate understanding of Daoism more than would otherwise be possible?

Has anybody else attempted or managed to immerse themselves in Daoist thought without embracing the more esoteric and mystical aspects related to it?  I cannot stop wondering about whether or not notions such as faith and meaning, or even belief in magic, are essential to understanding what I've always interpreted as just a description of the nature of things and the nature of how they should be.

 

You should always make sure your beliefs are grounded in good objective evidence and your own observation.  You are not missing out on anything by not having faith or a belief in magic.  There is nothing more than our natural universe, all that is here is natural.  Having said that we are just apes on floating space rock. Our science is not nearly as advanced as we believe it to be. There are things we do not believe exist or occur that do indeed exist and occur, but that doesn't make them supernatural.

 

I know that my training in this system has been one of the most profound experiences in my life, and continues to show me just how little we know about reality.

[doc benway]

On 5/15/2018 at 2:37 AM, Amigo-500 said:

I have always considered myself a fairly secular thinker, and I even try to approach most of the DDJ through more of a philosophical lens than a religious one. However, I'm noticing a large number of people posting on this forum that seem to carry deep and varied spiritual beliefs. I wonder, am I missing out on some wisdom by failing to open myself fully?

I always considered myself a secular thinker as well and my answer is YES!

If you are not opening yourself fully, you are missing out on some wisdom.

Wisdom is openness. 

Wisdom is connecting with a much deeper, more subtle, pervasive essence that is only achieved through profound openness.

 

On 5/15/2018 at 2:37 AM, Amigo-500 said:

For those of you who are reading this and who consider yourselves to be spiritual, were you spiritual before learning about Daoism?

Not really.

I had brief run-ins with spirituality as a youngster, often in the form of entheogens and writers like Castaneda, Osho, and Watts.

Then I encountered internal Chinese martial arts and qigong which led to Daoist meditation which opened me up to the full potential of spirituality. That subsequently led to my current study and practice of Yungdrung Bön.

 

On 5/15/2018 at 2:37 AM, Amigo-500 said:

Has anybody awoken that side of themselves only after reading about the Way?

Not me, it was a combination of reading and Daoist practices - meditation, martial arts, and qigong.

 

On 5/15/2018 at 2:37 AM, Amigo-500 said:

Do you believe that your spirituality informs your innate understanding of Daoism more than would otherwise be possible?

Absolutely, no question about it.

Same answer applies to martial arts and qigong. 

Daoism is a way of living, not simply a philosophy.

 

Intellectual understanding is a faint shadow of the direct, personal experience of the nature of oneself and the connection to the Way. One instant of deep spiritual connection is far more meaningful and valuable than all the intellectual understanding of the Way that I could possibly achieve in a lifetime.

 

Think of it like reading everything there is on Earth about the flavor of a mango - the chemistry, first hand accounts, psychological factors, agricultural data, photos, videos, brain scans of people eating mango, everything you can imagine, ....  but never tasting a mango. You have some idea - sweet, pungent, tart, funky...  And then one day you actually taste a mango... WOW! 

No information can prepare you for, or replace, the experience.

 

On 5/15/2018 at 2:37 AM, Amigo-500 said:

Has anybody else attempted or managed to immerse themselves in Daoist thought without embracing the more esoteric and mystical aspects related to it?

Yes, I read quite a bit before getting deeply into the meditative practices.

It was valuable and interesting but pales in comparison to direct experience.

 

On 5/15/2018 at 2:37 AM, Amigo-500 said:

  I cannot stop wondering about whether or not notions such as faith and meaning, or even belief in magic, are essential to understanding what I've always interpreted as just a description of the nature of things and the nature of how they should be.

Belief (the acceptance of an idea without personal verification) is not necessary, not in magic, not in scripture, not in anything.

Faith (trust in the path reinforced by direct experience) is helpful.

Meaning is very important, if there is no meaning, there is no trust, no confidence, no personal connection.

Without these, how can we put the principles to use in our lives?

 

Daoism is not "just a description of the nature of things and the nature of how they should be."

Daoism is not at all concerned with "should," it is concerned with what is.

It is far more than a description, it is a guide to a healthy and meaningful life. 

It is to discover that our mundane life IS magic without the need for belief or even faith (although faith can help to keep you going when practice is very challenging or tiresome).

 

So please investigate Daoism in whatever form makes sense and is accessible to you. The writings are precious but the experiential practices are priceless! I hope you someday learn that for yourself...

 

Good luck to you on your path.

 

[Limahong]

15 hours ago, steve said:

Intellectual understanding is a faint shadow of the direct, personal experience of the nature of oneself and the connection to the Way. One instant of deep spiritual connection is far more meaningful and valuable than all the intellectual understanding of the Way that I could possibly achieve in a lifetime.

 

Hi steve,

 

Trust we have to really live the Way - by embracing Taoism experientially.

 

Life itself is Experience - each of us is an unique experience.

 

I am more alive for having joined TBA.

 

But in the end it is - Me versus Myself.

 

 

 

Bea Arthur is remembered...

 

 

 

 

- LimA

Edited May 27, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...