Form of meditation of Lao tse and Chuang tse

[wandelaar]

Both Lao tse and Chuang tse refer to meditation as an important element of their way of life. So even philosophical Taoism has to take meditation seriously. Now legends and speculations abound on this subject. But what I'm looking for in this topic is a scientific investigation (book or article) of the question to what exact form(s) of meditation Lao tse and Chuang tse were referring.

 

[dawei]

I just did an interview with Livia Kohn.  Here are some titles that may be relevant but you'd likely be best to look them up to get a better understanding of what they share:

 

Science and the Dao: From the Big Bang to Lived Perfection. St. Petersburg: Three Pines Press, 2016.

Zhuangzi: Text and Context. St. Petersburg: Three Pines Press, 2014.

A Source Book in Chinese Longevity. St. Petersburg, Fla.: Three Pines Press, 2012.

Chuang Tzu: The Tao of Perfect Happiness. Woodstock, Vt: Skylight Paths, 2011.

Sitting in Oblivion: The Heart of Daoist Meditation. Dunedin, Fla: Three Pines Press, 2010.

Meditation Works: In the Daoist, Buddhist, and Hindu Traditions. Magdalena, NM: Three Pines Press, 2008.

[Stosh]

I don't think it says anywhere , in Lao or Chuang or Confucius work, that you can in fact , become a sage by (staring at your eyelids with your legs crossed type)  meditation. 

Go and present the proof otherwise, it seems a pervasive idea. 

[Mudfoot]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

Now legends and speculations abound on this subject. But what I'm looking for in this topic is a scientific investigation (book or article) of the question to what exact form(s) of meditation Lao tse and Chuang tse were referring.

 

That scientific investigation would only be an educated guess. Or a wild guess. 

 

Bruce Frantzis is soon finished with his DDJ meditation course, going through chapter 72 now. 

But that is how his tradition taught it, not really a scientific proof that it is how the author(s) practiced. 

[Starjumper]

23 minutes ago, Stosh said:

I don't think it says anywhere , in Lao or Chuang or Confucius work, that you can in fact , become a sage by (staring at your eyelids with your legs crossed type)  meditation. 

Go and present the proof otherwise, it seems a pervasive idea. 

 

Well you're right about one thing, the legs crossed is not required, never mind what the beginners and perverts say.

 

Also I would suggest not seriously talking about 'proof' on an internet forum, it will never happen.

 

Other than that, your comments appear to be missing the point.  

 

If you read the TTC from the point of view of a nei kung adept it is easy to see where there are a lot of comments about nei kung.  Additionally any real sage will be a mystic, and you don't get to mystic by sitting around with your finger in your nose, it requires nei kung.

 

This video may help to allay your fears that I might be incorrect = )

 

 

So, becoming a Taoist sage requires nei kung, and since the TTC is full of comments about nei kung then we can do the following  2 + 2 = 4, so, TADAAAA, Lau Tzu was a nei kung adept or master.  On the other hand, zen, which has a non Taoist chi kung, zazen, only has one technique and requires many life times to 'get it'.

 

So taking this a step further, real nei kung, as opposed to all the bullshit paraded around these days, contains hundreds or thousands of meditation methods, sitting, standing, reclining, moving, and still, with many of each type.

 

Therefore, to answer Wandelaar's question, the meditation methods that Lao Tzu used are in fact rather well known, by a few people at least, and they aren't telling.

 

In addition; Chuang Tzu, who was another Taoist sage, is sometimes depicted wearing a sword, so one may surmise that he was a warrior, which blends rather well with nei kung, since it is an exercise system for warriors.

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Starjumper

[LAOLONG]

22 minutes ago, Stosh said:

I don't think it says anywhere , in Lao or Chuang or Confucius work, that you can in fact , become a sage by (staring at your eyelids with your legs crossed type)  meditation. 

Go and present the proof otherwise, it seems a pervasive idea. 

In chuang tze there is a paragraph

On fasting the mind.

Where in the book, ask Marbelhead

[wandelaar]

I have looked up the titles given by dawei on the internet, but those books unhappily are not what I am looking for. The texts of Kohn are full of references to things I don't want to know about. Currently "knowing when to stop" has a high priority for me, so I don't plan to delve into the hundreds of esoteric Taoist methods and schools. I'm on the road of philosophical Taoism and just want to know what meditation practices are most probably referred to in the Chuang tse and the Tao Te Ching, and the investigation has to be based on the texts themselves, on references in other ancient texts, on archeological finds, etc. Certainty will not be possibly, but the reconstruction of the meditation practices in the Chuang tse and Tao Te Ching has to be as scientific as possible. At least that is what I am looking for.

[Marblehead]

21 minutes ago, LUCIA PHIER said:

In chuang tze there is a paragraph

On fasting the mind.

Where in the book, ask Marbelhead

I was thinking on that while reading the thread.

 

To the best of my knowledge Lao Tzu never mentioned any specific form of meditation.  Some may be able to read some form into it based on knowledge they already have.

 

Chuang Tzu did indeed speak of fasting of the mind.  I call it empty-minded meditation because that is how I see it compared with modern empty-minded meditation.

 

In Mair's translation it is in Chapter 4, Section 1.  We have discussed that section so it can be viewed in Daoist Discussions - Zhuangzi.

 

[Starjumper]

13 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

To the best of my knowledge Lao Tzu never mentioned any specific form of meditation.  Some may be able to read some form into it based on knowledge they already have.

 

In one place he mentions empty the head and fill the belly (1), also remove desires and replace them with ... something (2).  I'm not real uppity on the TTC.

 

1. Chi kung people will see this as him advising non thinking meditation and to fill the belly with chi which points to nei kung; in addition to the other possibilities, like being a suggestion to the emperor on how to run the country (oops, I almost spelled cuntry)

 

2. Removing desires reflects back on the statement in chapter one about being desireles, which is also a result of non thinking meditation, and seeing the mystery is something that mystics do.

 

Mystics, mysteries; all same, all same.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Starjumper

[flowing hands]

Verse 8

 

"In meditation go deep into the heart" (Li Erh Xian Shi)

[Mudfoot]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

 

 

On the other hand, zen, which has a non Taoist chi kung, zazen, only has one technique and requires many life times to 'get it'.

Because zen was separated from the full Shaolin tradition..... 

[Daemon]

@flowing hands

 

He's certainly right about that, as the heart's the easiest place to discover the Light.

 

☮️

[wandelaar]

This article might be relevant: 

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269597290_Bimodal_Mystical_Experience_in_the_Qiwulun_Chapter_of_Zhuangzi

(The pdf can be downloaded.) 

[Stosh]

4 hours ago, flowing hands said:

Verse 8

 

"In meditation go deep into the heart" (Li Erh Xian Shi)

The date of Neiye is uncertain , though it is a Taoist text , it is ascribed to various authors , Legalist ,Confucianist and Daoist , compilation may be about 300BC
TTC dates to possibly 400BC ,
Lao possibly dates  605-531 BC and ,so Neiye is a later 'document' and one cannot assume Lao was in accord with things written after him. 
He never read it. 

[dawei]

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I have looked up the titles given by dawei on the internet, but those books unhappily are not what I am looking for. The texts of Kohn are full of references to things I don't want to know about. Currently "knowing when to stop" has a high priority for me, so I don't plan to delve into the hundreds of esoteric Taoist methods and schools. I'm on the road of philosophical Taoism and just want to know what meditation practices are most probably referred to in the Chuang tse and the Tao Te Ching, and the investigation has to be based on the texts themselves, on references in other ancient texts, on archeological finds, etc. Certainty will not be possibly, but the reconstruction of the meditation practices in the Chuang tse and Tao Te Ching has to be as scientific as possible. At least that is what I am looking for.

 

We've had discussions here about 'philosophical' vs 'religious' taoism... In my interview with Livia Kohn, it seems she pioneered a new understanding of mysticism as that was previously understood as requiring a transcendent god but that is not found in the East. She told me of all the criticism and push back she got but to her, she saw it very clearly:  There is no separate philosophical vs religious paths that the ancients took, in that we would no more call Buddha, philosophical.   She said they all did all of it for the most part, it is more that they differed in the social-political solutions of the day.    BTW, some of us on the site hold the same position 

 

[Stosh]

5 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

In one place he mentions empty the head and fill the belly (1), also remove desires and replace them with ... something (2).  I'm not real uppity on the TTC.

 

1. Chi kung people will see this as him advising non thinking meditation and to fill the belly with chi which points to nei kung; in addition to the other possibilities, like being a suggestion to the emperor on how to run the country (oops, I almost spelled cuntry)

 

2. Removing desires reflects back on the statement in chapter one about being desireles, which is also a result of non thinking meditation, and seeing the mystery is something that mystics do.

 

Mystics, mysteries; all same, all same.

Legge chapter three from terebess  

Therefore the sage, in the exercise of his government, empties their minds, fills their bellies, weakens their wills, and strengthens their bones. He constantly (tries to) keep them without knowledge and without desire, and where there are those who have knowledge, to keep them from presuming to act (on it). When there is this abstinence from action, good order is universal.

 

This is action suggested is done by a sage- King with the people under his rule, who one may presume are not sages.

Therefore its not telling you you can become a sage by meditation.

[dawei]

8 minutes ago, Stosh said:

The date of Neiye is uncertain , though it is a Taoist text , it is ascribed to various authors , Legalist ,Confucianist and Daoist , compilation may be about 300BC
TTC dates to possibly 400BC ,
Lao possibly dates  605-531 BC and ,so Neiye is a later 'document' and one cannot assume Lao was in accord with things written after him. 
He never read it. 

 

I think that is a valid point but not sure if your finding this is a Neiye saying instead of a LZ one, and LZ would have no knowledge of such a saying?  If that was the case, I'd reverse the thinking to say Neiye wrote a saying as an understanding of LZ.

[dawei]

7 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Legge chapter three from terebess  

Therefore the sage, in the exercise of his government, empties their minds, fills their bellies, weakens their wills, and strengthens their bones. He constantly (tries to) keep them without knowledge and without desire, and where there are those who have knowledge, to keep them from presuming to act (on it). When there is this abstinence from action, good order is universal.

 

This is action suggested is done by a sage- King with the people under his rule, who one may presume are not sages.

Therefore its not telling you you can become a sage by meditation.

 

I would say, similar to my above comments... there is no suggestion of becoming a sage by meditation;  These are sages who talk of meditation.  There is a lot more rolled into what they do. 

[Stosh]

Chapter four Chuang tzu Watson has Confucius saying thus

 

"May- I ask what the fasting of the mind is?"

Confucius said, "Make your will one! Don't listen with your ears, listen with your mind. No, don't listen with your mind, but listen with your spirit. Listening stops with the ears, the mind stops with recognition, but spirit is empty- and waits on all things. The Way gathers in emptiness alone. Emptiness is the fasting of the mind."

Yen Hui said, "Before I heard this, I was certain that I was Hui. But now that I have heard it, there is no more Hui. Can this be called emptiness?"

"That's all there is to it," said Confucius. "Now I will tell you. You may go and play in his bird cage, but never be moved by fame. If he listens, then sing; if not, keep still. Have no gate, no opening, 5 but make oneness your house and live with what cannot be avoided. Then you will be close to success.

"It is easy to keep from walking; the hard thing is to walk without touching the ground. It is easy to cheat when you work for men, but hard to cheat when you work for Heaven. You have heard of flying with wings, but you have never heard of flying without wings. You have heard of the knowledge that knows, but you have never heard of the knowledge that does not know. Look into that closed room, the empty chamber where brightness is born! Fortune and blessing gather where there is stillness. But if you do not keep still - this is what is called sitting but racing around. 6 Let your ears and eyes communicate with what is inside, and put mind and knowledge on the outside. Then even gods and spirits will come to dwell, not to speak of men! This is the changing of the ten thousand things, the bond of Yu and Shun, the constant practice of Fu Hsi and Chi Ch'u.7 How much more should it be a rule for lesser men!"

 

But this is Chuangs book , Confucius is not the hero , and so this is not here endorsed by either author !

[Daemon]

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

This article might be relevant: 

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269597290_Bimodal_Mystical_Experience_in_the_Qiwulun_Chapter_of_Zhuangzi

(The pdf can be downloaded.) 

 

Certainly (from my perspective), the modulation of the breath is extremely relevant.

 

☮️

[Stosh]

6 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

I think that is a valid point but not sure if your finding this is a Neiye saying instead of a LZ one, and LZ would have no knowledge of such a saying?  If that was the case, I'd reverse the thinking to say Neiye wrote a saying as an understanding of LZ.

True , but my original post doesn't accommodate the shift in relationship. The Neiye authorship can have misunderstood what was said in the light of prevailing practice which was not espoused by Lao himself.

This may be two hundred years later , all sorts of associations may be ascribed to Lao , which would make him exclaim

"I never said that!"

[flowing hands]

As I have always said, the DDJ passages are primarily concerned with self cultivation. Religion and philosophy have nothing to do with it. Li Erh saw spirituality and not organized religion which is totally different. The Dao is not philosophy, it is a working understanding of life; a life science.

[Stosh]

16 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

I would say, similar to my above comments... there is no suggestion of becoming a sage by meditation;  These are sages who talk of meditation.  There is a lot more rolled into what they do. 

Maybe you have to stir fish soup gently, or butcher cows easily , but so far , if this is a significant practice trending a person on the road to sagehood , there's remarkably little said in that vein. 

[wandelaar]

It looks like this book is the most relevant for finding out what kind of meditation Lao tse and Chuang tse recommended:

 

https://books.google.nl/books?id=rJd7o9Ub960C

 

As to philosophical and religious Taoism, they may not have existed as separate movements at the time of Lao tse and Chuang tse (and even Taoism itself might not have existed as a separate movement at the time) but that doesn't mean that the different terms philosophical and religious Taoism are still meaningless today.

Edited May 18, 2018 by wandelaar

[Stosh]

1 minute ago, flowing hands said:

As I have always said, the DDJ passages are primarily concerned with self cultivation. Religion and philosophy have nothing to do with it. Li Erh saw spirituality and not organized religion which is totally different. The Dao is not philosophy, it is a working understanding of life; a life science.

If I understand correctly , your beliefs are more in line with a broader mystical tradition of what constitutes Daoism , which is not restricted to just your own belief package. Just as I was not raised Protestant , but Catholic ,though they did have have stuff in common, I cannot define for Protestants what their beliefs are supposed to be .