Form of meditation of Lao tse and Chuang tse

[Stosh]

1 minute ago, wandelaar said:

It looks like this book is this most relevant for finding out what kind of meditation Lao tse and Chuang tse recommended:

 

https://books.google.nl/books?id=rJd7o9Ub960C

 

As to philosophical and religious Taoism, they may not have existed as separate movements at the time of Lao tse and Chuang tse (and even Taoism itself might not have existed as a separate movement at the time) but that doesn't mean that the different terms philosophical and religious Taoism are still meaningless today.

Neiye again , a new perspective on it , but not simply going back to the source to see what he personally said. 

Jesus was a Hebrew and Christianity was not a separate thing at that point in time either , but one cannot ascribe that he believed everything the Pharisees did or that he eschewed everything they approved of . One supposes that his apostles were fairly correct in that some things were mutual and some were not. You have to get very close to the person and his direct associates and look at the missives to understand what is proper to assume. 

[wandelaar]

11 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

The Dao is not philosophy, it is a working understanding of life; a life science.

 

A "working understanding of life" is a philosophy. Philosophy doesn't need to be impractical.

[dawei]

9 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

It looks like this book is this most relevant for finding out what kind of meditation Lao tse and Chuang tse recommended:

 

https://books.google.nl/books?id=rJd7o9Ub960C

 

As to philosophical and religious Taoism, they may not have existed as separate movements at the time of Lao tse and Chuang tse (and even Taoism itself might not have existed as a separate movement at the time) but that doesn't mean that the different terms philosophical and religious Taoism are still meaningless today.

 

Sure... like the great schism of the church.    Folks will pick and choose like  a buffet what is palpable and walk away without tasting other stuff.   

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

 

7 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

In one place he mentions empty the head and fill the belly (1), also remove desires and replace them with ... something (2).  I'm not real uppity on the TTC.

 

1. Chi kung people will see this as him advising non thinking meditation and to fill the belly with chi which points to nei kung; in addition to the other possibilities, like being a suggestion to the emperor on how to run the country (oops, I almost spelled cuntry)

 

2. Removing desires reflects back on the statement in chapter one about being desireles, which is also a result of non thinking meditation, and seeing the mystery is something that mystics do.

 

Mystics, mysteries; all same, all same.

Legge chapter three from terebess  

Therefore the sage, in the exercise of his government, empties their minds, fills their bellies, weakens their wills, and strengthens their bones. He constantly (tries to) keep them without knowledge and without desire, and where there are those who have knowledge, to keep them from presuming to act (on it). When there is this abstinence from action, good order is universal.

 

This is action suggested is done by a sage- King with the people under his rule, who one may presume are not sages.

Therefore its not telling you you can become a sage by meditation.

 

 

Very observant of you there, Stosh, I agree, because I wasn't talking about sagedom in that post, I was answering a comment from marbles as to where meditation is referred to in the TTC.

 

 In fact I think Legge is a wanker who added too much of his own flavor, typical German, right?   I prefer this translation by Gia Fu Feng, who appears to be Chinese, which can be helpful when we're talking about a Chinese book.

 

Quote

The wise therefore rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies, by weakening ambitions and strengthening bones. 

Those things mentioned there are all results of meditation and chi kung, which is also meditation.

 

'The wise' can refer to a teacher.  Heart/mind, heart or mind, same meaning.  The sage is without ambitions ~too much, and some types of chi kung strengthen the bones.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Starjumper

[CityHermit!]

Doesn't Zhuangzi mention Zuowang? Seems like some earlier mentioned quotes might relate to that? I don't recall other passages offhand but maybe I should look. I love that text, I should read it again in the near future.

 

It was my impression that some passages in the Laozi describe elements of the same thing, such as references to stillness and darkness, etc.

[Stosh]

SJ

Being partially german, I must agree we are willing to supply additional text. 

Drinking milk is good for bones which I doubt is part of regular chi kung , and undermining everyone elses ambitions is handy in many contexts. So while I wont say youre incorrect... it still isnt a pesuasive argument that one can become a sage by eyelid watching... if youre saying that. 

To me the whole thing looks like an appeal to intellect , the exact opposite of unstructured examination.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Stosh

[Stosh]

30 minutes ago, CityHermit! said:

Doesn't Zhuangzi mention Zuowang? Seems like some earlier mentioned quotes might relate to that? I don't recall other passages offhand but maybe I should look. I love that text, I should read it again in the near future.

 

It was my impression that some passages in the Laozi describe elements of the same thing, such as references to stillness and darkness, etc.

That could shed a helpful light against my claim, BUT, you gotta make the argument , on my phone searches are very cumbersome so its gotta be on yours.

[Starjumper]

14 minutes ago, Stosh said:

SJ

Being partially german, I must agree we are willing to supply additional text. 

Drinking milk is good for bones which I doubt is part of regular chi kung , and undermining everyone elses ambitions is handy in many contexts. So while I wont say youre incorrect... it still isnt a pesuasive argument that one can become a sage by eyelid watching... if youre saying that. 

 

No I wasn't saying that.  I mean, that stuff could eventually lead to sagedom if you add a bunch of other stuff, but no.  I was just making a case for how you could look at it as referring to meditations.  Let me be the first to say  that there can be various levels of meaning in the poetic TTC, and I agree that your interpretation, which is the most common one, is in there too.  Just keep in mind that there are other versions of the TTC that are all about cultivation, by and for schools of cultivation.

[CityHermit!]

30 minutes ago, Stosh said:

That could shed a helpful light against my claim, BUT, you gotta make the argument , on my phone searches are very cumbersome so its gotta be on yours.

It was in another passage with Yen Hui and Confucius where Yen Hui describes sitting and forgetting (Zuowang), in Chapter 6 I believe.

[Stosh]

28 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

No I wasn't saying that.  I mean, that stuff could eventually lead to sagedom if you add a bunch of other stuff, but no.  I was just making a case for how you could look at it as referring to meditations.  Let me be the first to say  that there can be various levels of meaning in the poetic TTC, and I agree that your interpretation, which is the most common one, is in there too.  Just keep in mind that there are other versions of the TTC that are all about cultivation, by and for schools of cultivation.

Yes but those are all wrong.

[CityHermit!]

11 minutes ago, CityHermit! said:

It was in another passage with Yen Hui and Confucius where Yen Hui describes sitting and forgetting (Zuowang), in Chapter 6 I believe.

https://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu.html#6

 

There are some other references too apart from Yen Hui and Confucius. The reference in the same chapter to breathing with the heels for one.

Edited May 19, 2018 by CityHermit!
clicked post too soon, adding words

[Wu Ming Jen]

The method of nei gong is transmitted by Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu books and is why we discuss them today. To become acquainted with nei gong practice today one should consider becoming a Taoist priest.

 

The scriptures hold the most valuable information and are not accessible to the uninitiated. High martial skill and mastery of the physical plane is the foundation. Deep meditation, fasting and minimalist survival techniques in seclusion with nature inforse demanding discipline.

 

Few can endure the training necessary to reach high gong. Most are content with superficial knowledge and call it a day.

 

 

[CityHermit!]

3 hours ago, Stosh said:

Maybe you have to stir fish soup gently, or butcher cows easily , but so far , if this is a significant practice trending a person on the road to sagehood , there's remarkably little said in that vein. 

I was shown this video many years ago of an expert archer's brainwaves being measured while taking a shot. The main point of the video was not anything about archery except that when about to take action the archer was experiencing alpha brain waves rather than beta waves. I think the idea is that when doing seemingly ordinary, or even complex, activities the more proficient ones get into a different state of mind. Not just in an abstract way but down to the physical level with brain activity. Meditation tends towards the same. I think overall whether it's an activity or sitting meditation, the state of mind is what counts.

[CityHermit!]

One more thing, in regards to brain waves, meditation and breathing through heels reference and the like, that there is also the concept of synchronizing said brainwaves with frequencies in nature. More specifically I mean resonating frequencies of the earth, Schumann Resonance, things like that. The way I was taught about embryonic breathing was that this sort of harmony takes place during practice. I say embryonic breathing loosely, I think there's lots of terms used over the years to talk about the same sort of thing. I believe that people from more remote times expanded on these theories and practices experimentally. There's definitely a difference between how people would describe things back then compared to today.

Edited May 19, 2018 by CityHermit!
typo

[Stosh]

Fine, if so, point it out in the text. If you cant, then the souce is outside the texts of the authors mentioned. 

The Op suggests that philosophical daoists need to deal with this meditation thing. 

Its not in the works in any clear or specific manner, thus philosophical daoism doesnt need to pay much attention to it regardless of nieye guys , shamanic mysticism or anyone elses expanded curriculum. 

It would take longer to describe hopscotch than was potentially spent on meditation. 

Chuang portrays Confucius as not even having a grasp of the stuff! 

I can show entire chapters expressly discussing how sagely people got so, like the butcher, or Robber Chih and its not by fasting the mind.

Concept after logical construct what you might consider to approach wisdom. 

 

If you want to fast your mind, maybe you could take a restful stroll along the river, or do it the other way. 

 

But its just not central to Lao or Chuang or Confucius dao, as they described it , when they were alive speaking for themselves.

[CityHermit!]

35 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Fine, if so, point it out in the text. If you cant, then the souce is outside the texts of the authors mentioned. 

The Op suggests that philosophical daoists need to deal with this meditation thing. 

Its not in the works in any clear or specific manner, thus philosophical daoism doesnt need to pay much attention to it regardless of nieye guys , shamanic mysticism or anyone elses expanded curriculum. 

It would take longer to describe hopscotch than was potentially spent on meditation. 

Chuang portrays Confucius as not even having a grasp of the stuff! 

I can show entire chapters expressly discussing how sagely people got so, like the butcher, or Robber Chih and its not by fasting the mind.

Concept after logical construct what you might consider to approach wisdom. 

 

If you want to fast your mind, maybe you could take a restful stroll along the river, or do it the other way. 

 

But its just not central to Lao or Chuang or Confucius dao, as they described it , when they were alive speaking for themselves.

 

I did, in Chapter 6 of Zhuangzi and I posted the link. It's not long or difficult to read through. If it's really necessary I can copy paste the text. There are clearly things described that resemble, if not actually being, a form of meditation. I don't see why it's important to fixate on the term "meditation". Buddhism makes use of the term especially but it's not like there aren't parallels in other traditions that don't predominantly use the same terminology. Another example, Daoyin and Yoga both have a lot of stretching and posture based stuff but it's not like one could say that neither the Indians or Chinese had stretching and postures because one used different terms than the other. Meditation is a term for something that other terms can also in part describe.

 

To elaborate, the encounter in between between Yen Hui and Confucius in chapter 6 appears to be a sort of follow up to the one in chapter 4. In the latter case Confucius is instructing Yen Hui but in the former it seems Yen Hui got a leg up on Confucius in a way to surprise him. That may be consistent with an expected critical attitude towards Confucius, so in actuality it may not be that Confucius is being described as a model teacher of "meditation" as it were.

 

In any case, the use of figures in Zhuangzi is not all quite literal much of the time. Many characters are just that, characters. They illustrate ideas in a different style of writing than the Laozi. Looking at the names of them it should be kind of obvious. Woman Crookback for instance? There's just a lot of subtlety in it.

[wandelaar]

No use debating the obvious. We have been through that before. There are descriptions of meditation practices in the Chuang tse and some more concealed ones in the Tao Te Ching. Examples have already been given in another topic not too long ago and links have been posted. If Stosh wishes to defend there aren't any meditation practices worthy of the name in the Chuang tse or Tao Te Ching he is free to do so, but that's not what I started this topic for. So I will ignore it. I want to learn something more about the actual form those meditation practices most probably had. When there are any other ideas apart from the ones already posted about the most probable form of the meditation practices we are talking about here, I like to read about them.

Edited May 19, 2018 by wandelaar

[flowing hands]

10 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

A "working understanding of life" is a philosophy. Philosophy doesn't need to be impractical.

 

I think a philosophy can be a doctrine without scientific observation or input. A life science in the modern terminology, means 'a study of life processes' which is the opposite. 

 

So Li Erh observed the natural processes in a scientific way, based on his own great depth of understanding of self cultivation and of life processes. To make a philosophy, we can intellectualize all sorts of states of the human condition, including the mind, which are not necessarily based on any scientific observation. 

Edited May 19, 2018 by flowing hands
expand on point

[wandelaar]

1 minute ago, flowing hands said:

I think a philosophy can be a doctrine without scientific observation or input. A life science in the modern terminology, means 'a study of life processes' which is the opposite. 

 

A philosophy indeed "can be" a doctrine without scientific observation or input, and that's exactly what gave philosophy such a bad name. But that happily isn't all there is to it, taking note of scientific findings or just of  your own observations of the world doesn't of itself make your thoughts about life or the world at large non-philosophical. The term "philosophy" includes pure speculative thought, but it also covers a lot more than that.

[flowing hands]

Ah But Li Erh's was not speculative, his thoughts were not an intellectual exercise that most philosophy is. The term arm chair philosopher applies to those that speculate. Li Erh understood the Life processes, if he didn't he would not have been a Daoist. Daoism defines a path that is born out of observed and tested wisdom, not on speculation. If one writes a paper based on scientific testing and observation, that is not called philosophy. So Li Erh wrote  verses about life science/processes that were observed and tested, due to the fact that he cultivated power and the understanding of that power which is a life science.

[wandelaar]

It is always possible to call a mule a cow, if one wants to.

[flowing hands]

If you understood Li Erh's verses like I do then you would know what I am talking about. He has been my teacher for 34 years.

[Daemon]

Are you ( @flowing hands ) therefore prepared to tell @wandelaar exactly how to practice the heart-centred meditation, to which you previously referred, or should he consult with someone else?

 

☮️

[thelerner]

It may be problematic to aim at the 'scientific' methods of semi-legendary figures who lived 1,000+ years ago.  In that you're likely to end up with people's projections.. maybe good maybe bad and probably off.  In truth to be 'authentic' you might have to learn ancient Chinese, get a couple of classics they might have read and seclude yourself for a decade or two in a hermitage. 

 

Perhaps more practical is to find a living person (or in the past century or so) or tradition and start there.  That way you can get closer to there genius, versus best guess at someone long dead in alien culture.  Have an actual map instead of throwing darts. 

Edited May 19, 2018 by thelerner

[KuroShiro]

15 hours ago, CityHermit! said:

Doesn't Zhuangzi mention Zuowang?

 

Yes.