Form of meditation of Lao tse and Chuang tse

[wandelaar]

@ thelerner

 

What I am after is a rational reconstruction that tries to catch the spirit of the Taoism of Lao tse  and Chuang tse, without trying to copy exactly how they acted and thought. I want to try out that road myself in the here and now, and as I live in contemporary society it would be useless and in fact counterproductive to try to exactly act and think as the ancient Chinese did in their time. The construction has to be rational because I am (or at least try to be ). I know the word "rational" is kind of taboo here, but I also have to respect my own inner nature, and my result will thus deviate in some essential aspects from the way of the ancients. 

Edited May 19, 2018 by wandelaar

[Michael Sternbach]

35 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

@ thelerner

 

What I am after is a rational reconstruction that tries to catch the spirit of the Taoism of Lao tse  and Chuang tse, without trying to copy exactly how they acted and thought. I want to try out that road myself in the here and now, and as I live in contemporary society it would be useless and in fact counterproductive to try to exactly act and think as the ancient Chinese did in their time. The construction has to be rational because I am (or at least try to be ). I know the word "rational" is kind of taboo here, but I also have to respect my own inner nature, and my result will thus deviate in some essential aspects from the way of the ancients. 

 

Act in accordance with the Dao. There are no cut-and-dried solutions. The learning process itself is part of the way - as your wisdom grows and you become more of a (Daoist) sage...

 

It might be helpful to consult the Yijing whenever you are in doubt what way to take, and to seriously try to implement its advice. Consider it a way to support and facilitate access to your own intuition (which is essentially the Dao speaking to you).

 

In my book, this is the most important teaching of the ancient Daoists - setting your rational mind at rest (sometimes) and learning to listen to that inner voice of yours.

[Daemon]

For me, the mind needs to be united with the heart (and with the gut), so I'm entirely in favour of the scientific rationale (and I'm unaware of any reason that science cannot, or should not, be used to evaluate wisdom traditions and practices).

 

☮️

[flowing hands]

5 hours ago, Daemon said:

Are you ( @flowing hands ) therefore prepared to tell @wandelaar exactly how to practice the heart-centred meditation, to which you previously referred, or should he consult with someone else?

 

☮️

 

Certainly not over the internet!

[Daemon]

Then should he (or others) wish to learn that practice, how would you advise him (or them) to proceed?

 

☮️ 

[thelerner]

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

@ thelerner

 

What I am after is a rational reconstruction that tries to catch the spirit of the Taoism of Lao tse  and Chuang tse, without trying to copy exactly how they acted and thought. I want to try out that road myself in the here and now, and as I live in contemporary society it would be useless and in fact counterproductive to try to exactly act and think as the ancient Chinese did in their time. The construction has to be rational because I am (or at least try to be ). I know the word "rational" is kind of taboo here, but I also have to respect my own inner nature, and my result will thus deviate in some essential aspects from the way of the ancients. 

The rational construction of the spirit of Taoism as per semi legendary figures seems either like an oxymoron or someones Graduate thesis.  Forget exact,  are you willing to spend years delving into the classics that influenced them?  To read up on the history and cultural relevances of there time?  

 

Or are you  just looking for a meditation technique people will assume they used? 

 

 

[wandelaar]

25 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Or are you  just looking for a meditation technique people will assume they used?

 

Almost right - I am looking for the meditation technique they probably used.

 

But it seems this book attempts just that:

https://books.google.nl/books?id=rJd7o9Ub960C

 

I don't plan to become a specialist on the subject myself, so reading a serious scientific study will be enough.

 

[flowing hands]

1 hour ago, Daemon said:

Then should he (or others) wish to learn that practice, how would you advise him (or them) to proceed?

 

☮️ 

 

Its written in the verses, understand the verses and then you will know.

[thelerner]

16 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

Almost right - I am looking for the meditation technique they probably used.

 

But it seems this book attempts just that:

https://books.google.nl/books?id=rJd7o9Ub960C

 

 

Looks like an interesting worthwhile book.  Please let us know what you get out of it.

 

From reviewer An File Dubn- (https://www.amazon.com/dp/0231115652/ref=rdr_ext_tmb)

In terms of its content, it paints a very concise picture of the meaning of the Tao (though, like most Taoist writings, through circumlocutions, since the “real” Tao defies language), one that is more concrete, more physical even, than that of the Lao Tzu (Tao Te Ching) – ‘Inward Training’ sees ch’i as the physical expression of the Tao, something that can be fostered within the body & mind through particular techniques. It is devoid of the (now ancient) Chinese political concerns of the Lao Tzu, and thus, for me anyway, more pertinent to a contemporary mystical practice.

 

It is also worthwhile for its more direct treatment of meditation practice, without all the intricate metaphors of alchemy that later took over Taoist thought. The method is simple, a shutting off of the conscious mind in meditation, and thereby allowing the Tao, which is latent, to come of its own accord. The metaphor of ‘Inward Training’ is simply to “clean out the lodging place” of the Tao – i.e. to clear the mind, to be still and calm, and to let the Tao manifest itself. There’s nothing here about lead and mercury; it’s not necessary.

 

From Project Muse- https://muse.jhu.edu/article/8691

 

"Roth's thesis is that long before "Taoism," the Nei-yeh, like the Lao Tzu, was essentially a people-oriented manual on governing the family and the state by "active nonaction," or wu-wei, both allowing and assisting people to be their natural (tzu-jan) best selves.²

 

However, the Nei-yeh underscores the importance of the indicative (to be) rather than the imperative (to do), although, within the holistic Way, the two are virtually inseparable. Therefore, the Nei-yeh offers techniques of "Inward Training" or "inner cultivation" through proper bodily posture and the moderating of breath and other physiological functions, including sex, with the objective of realizing a mystical resonance of the numinous (shen) self with the totality of all beings and things within the cosmos and with the cosmos. "

Edited May 20, 2018 by thelerner

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Pasting from similar thread.. same answer:

 

You might find what you're looking for here:

 

 

Includes all the meditation texts from the Guanzi, where the Neiye is found. Includes commentary to connect them with the mediation traditions inspired by Laozi and Zhuangzi, including translations of these texts, and also of Guiguzi (Ghost Valley Master) from Warring States which seems inspired by the Neiye, et al.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Thread-Dao-Unraveling-Traditions-Cultivation-ebook/dp/B078J7XRBX/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1527611992&sr=1-1&keywords=thread+of+dao

[wandelaar]

18 minutes ago, Harmonious Emptiness said:

Pasting from similar thread.. same answer:

 

You might find what you're looking for here:

 

 

Includes all the meditation texts from the Guanzi, where the Neiye is found. Includes commentary to connect them with the mediation traditions inspired by Laozi and Zhuangzi, including translations of these texts, and also of Guiguzi (Ghost Valley Master) from Warring States which seems inspired by the Neiye, et al.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Thread-Dao-Unraveling-Traditions-Cultivation-ebook/dp/B078J7XRBX/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1527611992&sr=1-1&keywords=thread+of+dao

 

Thank you, but I have already bought Original Tao by Roth.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

So then you have the Neiye, but not the Xinshu (2 parts plus commentary) and the Bai Xin.  Also, while Original Tao is sort of a must read, it's more about history, whereas Thread of Dao looks at the practices and philosophy. You'll also find a wealth of translated excerpts from other texts in Thread of Dao, like Zhuang Zi, Internal Medicine Classic, Zen writings, etc., and meditation guidance in the back to apply the texts in sitting practice.

[Daemon]

50 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Thank you, but I have already bought Original Tao by Roth.

 

 

I obtained a copy myself but I put it aside without reading it when I was led to understand that it contains no detailed instructions.

 

☮️

[wandelaar]

43 minutes ago, Daemon said:

 

I obtained a copy myself but I put it aside without reading it when I was led to understand that it contains no detailed instructions.

 

☮️

 

I don't think there is enough information about it in the original and historical sources to allow for detailed instructions.

[Daemon]

@wandelaar

 

In that case, as you seem quite enamored by Roth, you might want to consider  https://www.brown.edu/academics/contemplative-studies/concentrating-contemplative-studies/formal-concentration

 

Please note that's simply for information and it constitutes neither an endorsement nor a recommendation. However, the close involvement of Britton in this program will probably provide safeguards against the descent into madness that can result from forced, unnatural concentration practices.

 

Spoiler

 

 

This is something that you might find to be an eye-opener

 

Spoiler

 

 

☮️

[wandelaar]

@ Daemon

 

I have already studied the scientific research concerning meditation. What I was saying is that the exact form of the type of meditation commended by Lao tzu and Chuang tzu is unknown because our historical and textual sources are not clear enough about it. We can only make some educated guesses.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The connections between Laozi, Zhuangzi, and Guanzi make the practices more apparent. They practiced sitting in stillness, internal gazing, absorbing Virtue from Heaven, harmonizing internal energies, likely absorbing yin and yang from nature, etc.

[wandelaar]

8 hours ago, Harmonious Emptiness said:

The connections between Laozi, Zhuangzi, and Guanzi make the practices more apparent. They practiced sitting in stillness, internal gazing, absorbing Virtue from Heaven, harmonizing internal energies, likely absorbing yin and yang from nature, etc.

 

That connection with Lao tzu and Chuang tzu is also discussed in the book by Roth.

 

I have so many books already that their study is now actually driving me away from practicing the methods myself. That's why I don't want to buy many more, however interesting they might be. 

 

[Daemon]

@wandelaar

 

Two fundamental practical considerations.

• Are you clear about what you want to achieve?
• Have you uncovered the details of any psychological, physiological or psychophysiological  practice or practices, which you believe will facilitate that goal (or goals)?

☮️

[wandelaar]

1 minute ago, Daemon said:

@wandelaar

 

Two fundamental practical considerations.

• Are you clear about what you want to achieve?
• Have you uncovered the details of any psychological, physiological or psychophysiological  practice or practices, which you believe will facilitate that goal (or goals)?

☮️

 

What I want to achieve:

 

- Peace of mind.

- Increased emotional independence from external disturbances.

- Greater freedom of choice by recognizing and being able to forgo automatic reaction-patterns.

 

(I already notice these effects when I daily meditate, but the problem is continuing with the practice day after day.)

 

How do I meditate:

 

- Just sitting (on a chair) for one hour, with a CD with meditation-music playing in the background, and watching my thoughts and feelings come and go. Sometimes watching my breath and counting when my concentration gets lost.

 

(I don't need great mystical revelations or magical capabilities, and I don't expect them with my minimal spiritual investment.)

 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

21 hours ago, Harmonious Emptiness said:

Pasting from similar thread.. same answer:

 

You might find what you're looking for here:

 

 

Includes all the meditation texts from the Guanzi, where the Neiye is found. Includes commentary to connect them with the mediation traditions inspired by Laozi and Zhuangzi, including translations of these texts, and also of Guiguzi (Ghost Valley Master) from Warring States which seems inspired by the Neiye, et al.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Thread-Dao-Unraveling-Traditions-Cultivation-ebook/dp/B078J7XRBX/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1527611992&sr=1-1&keywords=thread+of+dao

 

That book looks very interesting. Seems like it's only available as an ebook though, which is currently NOT available. 

[Daemon]

@wandelaar

 

So, you've found a practice that works for you but you have difficulty sustaining it?

Is that difficulty because you find it hard to put aside 60' per day to practice because of other commitments or because you find the practice itself a bit too forced or unenjoyable or is there some other reason or reasons?

 

☮️

[wandelaar]

1 minute ago, Daemon said:

@wandelaar

 

So, you've found a practice that works for you but you have difficulty sustaining it?

Is that difficulty because you find it hard to put aside 60' per day to practice because of other commitments or because you find the practice itself a bit too forced or unenjoyable or is there some other reason or reasons?

 

☮️

 

I always complete the meditation when I get myself to sit down and start the CD. Then I sit until the CD is finished. Usually halfway during the meditation arguments pop up why I should quit and do something else, but I just observe those arguments and continue meditating till the end.

 

There are three situations when I find it hard to meditate:

1) Too busy.

2) Not feeling well.

3) Having had a lot of trouble during the day.

 

[Daemon]

Firstly, (before being able to address your later 3 bullet points) I'd find it useful to know whether you find these arguments take the form of both thoughts and feelings or only thoughts.

Is it possible that you're intellectualising some feelings in order to keep them at arm's length? That can be a very useful way of protecting yourself against emotional overwhelm, so you need to exercise caution in any such exploration.

 

☮️

[wandelaar]

30 minutes ago, Daemon said:

Firstly, (before being able to address your later 3 bullet points) I'd find it useful to know whether you find these arguments take the form of both thoughts and feelings or only thoughts.

Is it possible that you're intellectualising some feelings in order to keep them at arm's length? That can be a very useful way of protecting yourself against emotional overwhelm, so you need to exercise caution in any such exploration.

 

☮️

 

It's both feelings and arguments. But as I know that part of the meditation practice consists in temporarily resisting to follow the wish to stop meditating, the feelings are not strong enough to make me stop. The feelings seem to use the arguments to make their point. But as I wrote, as soon as I start my hour of meditating I will complete it till the CD has reached it's end.

Edited May 30, 2018 by wandelaar